PvP Servers, Mechanics, and Penalties

Discussion in 'Gameplay Discussions' started by Primal, Dec 17, 2017.

  1. Primal

    Primal Ascendant

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2017
    Messages:
    11
    Likes Received:
    25
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    EBONGUARD.COM
    I want to get a headstart on a conversation relating to this subject so that the devs can garner feedback. I will start by outlining my points below, and invite others to share their thoughts.


    PvP and PvE Server Split

    This seems to always be the starting point issue. Players do not like the idea of splitting the community because of the fear of lower population on servers (mostly PvP) in the long run. However, my opinion is that by combining both communities into a single server the compromise is a much worse situation, mostly to those who enjoy PvP, than if they were separate. PvE players want to be protected or to have the opportunity to elect to not be killed in the open world at all. This leads to karma penalties, jailings, flaggings, debuffs, you name it. These are a necessary compromise that both sides have to tolerate – PvE’ers will still get ganked even with penalties, and PvPers are having to deal with skirting the mechanics + penalties. By having the servers split, these systems do not have to exist… and especially on the PvP side, would offer better gameplay to stay around longer.


    What systems I believe are okay

    Ganking lower levels, even on a PvP-designated server, should have its penalties. Whether its some sort of debuff due to level disparity, having your character spawn further from the location once they die, or (what I prefer) putting in a system that rewards killing these players which allows the community to police themselves. Having equipment degrade instead of debuffs or penalties on PvP/PK incentivizes PvE and economic play to replace or repair broken equipment. This is the best scenario in my opinion to have both sides working together since those who want to PvP are reliant on protecting PvE players as they gather materials, and PvE players progress by equipping those in PvP. The less systems that are in place, and the more tools the community has to police itself the better.


    Special Servers and Seasons

    I just saw the post on the new CBT special servers and I think this is a great idea. This could almost be used similar in the way other games set up “Seasons”. Having a set of limited duration PvP servers (i.e. 3 months) with the end of the Season offering aesthetic-only rewards that players can sport on normal servers or into other Seasons… with special rewards going to guilds or players who accomplish certain tasks. This also prevents the problem of the long-term hegemony of guilds who maintain ownership of areas and structures for the entirety of the game. The reset would keep it fresh and the players engaged on every wipe. As long as there is nothing that could be given out that would be an advantage for the next special server or season, new players could jump in at any time without feeling behind.
     
    Cyn, loser and Atorasu like this.
  2. Ayuna

    Ayuna Ascendant

    Joined:
    Nov 20, 2017
    Messages:
    49
    Likes Received:
    39
    I like your ideas. I think one server could work out if we had a flagging system. So you could flag yourself for open world PK/PvP. Of course, there would have to be incentives (either PvP rewards or cosmetic rewards) for flagging yourself.

    I also like the idea of having crafting involved in PvP, someone mentioned trade runs.

    And the special servers could also be a great opportunity. I could imagine it would be fun to have a special server just for open world pk. Have seasons (like you said) where players could just get in, get their share of pvp and have fun and it wouldn't bother the PvE crowd on the "normal" servers. That might work out even better than a flagging system. They could even have special servers with guild pvp where a guild could build a base and then had to defend that.
     
  3. Wormboy

    Wormboy Ascendant

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2017
    Messages:
    4
    Likes Received:
    11
    Flagging takes away from the concept of open world pvp
     
    PapaShert and Mishee like this.
  4. loser

    loser Ascendant

    Joined:
    Nov 10, 2017
    Messages:
    20
    Likes Received:
    9
    the event servers should not last more than a week at a time. pulling a whole bunch of people away from the main servers for months and then expecting them to come back that far behind in progression (assuming no progression based rewards to bring back) is just a bad idea. if they're going to hold seasonal content, it should be on the main servers. event servers should be short events that give players something fun to do during the downtime that always happens between major updates.

    everything else, especially splitting pvp and pve servers to allow more unrestricted pvping on the pvp servers, i agree with.
     
  5. Sleight

    Sleight Ascendant

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2017
    Messages:
    4
    Likes Received:
    0
    Gender:
    Male
    I really miss Aion's AP system and factions, with faction zones. You killed the enemy faction to earn AP and if killed lost some yourself. You could then spend the points on PvP gear or PvP gems/pots etc, or save them for month to transform for 10minutes into the general with amazing power to support your faction during a war(think it was once per day CD, only top 10 people per faction). The problem that destroyed that system is when they made the same AP(pvp points) possible to be obtained in PvE instances. After this implementation most people just stayed in the dungouns or safe zone party que finders, thus ruining open world PvP. I just wish some action combat type game would implement that style of encouraged and rewarding PvP that seems to be missing from most modern MMO's.
     
  6. Tez

    Tez Ascendant

    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2017
    Messages:
    81
    Likes Received:
    29
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Software Engineer
    Location:
    Cali
    Well you bring valid points to splitting server.

    Personally I dont like splits UNLESS they are balanced cause alot of guilds these days have multiple types of players in there communities. You will never find a guild such as ours with 200+ members who are all "hardcore" pvpers ... I wish I had that but I dont and never will.

    I think making it so you do have large penalties for killing someone 5 levels or lower is needed but you need to make sure there level shows above there name if thats the case. I dont want to kill someone and then find out I got a penalty when I didnt even know he was 5 levels lower.

    Also the equipment idea is good. That would help the pvers be useful while the pvpers are being penalized for pking individuals they shouldnt have.

    Over all the OP has solid ideas for a split of server but the devs must add all these fail safes for the pvers to accept being on a pvp server in larger guilds.

    I hope they listen and adjust what they need to rather than separating the community and most of all guilds.

    As Sleight brings out Aions pvp was amazing that system worked really well so something along those lines also in addition to the posters would be perfect. Killing lower levels in Aion rewarded you barly no pvp points as well so it wasnt even worth while. Also if you got "accidently" killed by a lower level you lost a HUGE amount of pvp points making you think twice about engaging the enemy you dont know.
     
    Sera and Sleight like this.
  7. Sleight

    Sleight Ascendant

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2017
    Messages:
    4
    Likes Received:
    0
    Gender:
    Male
    i forgot about that the 10 level lower PvP enemies were purple not red, and you got basically nothing for them but if they killed you they got triple AP or so.

    Also they had bosses on each faction that dropped different items for certain classes so it encouraged you to explore enemy faction zones to get certain items.
     
  8. Upheat

    Upheat Ascendant

    Joined:
    Dec 14, 2017
    Messages:
    6
    Likes Received:
    1
    Gender:
    Male
    I'd like to respond to all your points:

    1) I think the solution to the problem is easy.. have some PvE-only servers and servers that have PvP enabled and not allow easy transfers between them (make the transfers take a long time, such as days, or don't allow it at all, or have repercussions for having a transfer. The main point of this is to not have people free farm PvE servers for a few months and destroy the competition on the PvP-servers.) I just noticed you literally mentioned that as I reread your post but whatever. ALTHOUGH I still believe there should be penalties for ganking in open-world even in the PvP servers, and there should be mechanics to avoid those penalties (BDO has one such as declaring war on another guild)

    2) Totally agree with what you're saying here. It's really lame to be leveling up and have someone gank you, the penalties for that should definitely be harsh. It's either that, or disable PvP in most of the leveling zones (activate PvP towards the later leveling zones is what I would personally prefer.) Another cool idea that I got from your "policing" idea is a bounty system that I haven't seen in any MMOs: Player get ganked gathering resources or grinding monsters --> Players goes into town and places bounty onto a player through an NPC (has to have died from that player in the recent xx minutes) --> Bounty Hunters are given a temporary general location on the killer and are given a reward based on many people that person has killed (bounty obviously resets once the person is captured). The idea will obviously take balancing, like maybe paying for the location of the person so gold isn't endlessly generated into the economy, or the victim paying a fee. At the end of the day though I don't think this would ever be added into A:IR since the MMO is already mostly developed but whatever!

    3) I don't think this is a good idea. This would kill the game very fast. I'm sure you got this idea from PoE, and it works for that game because of its mechanics, but for MMOs it can never work. People who endlessly slave hours away for their amazing gear would feel lost at the end of the 3-month period when all their progress gets lost. There's also a lot of people (like myself) who do not like starting over. Although I did enjoy the one league I played at PoE.... it's only good short-term.
     
  9. xDrac

    xDrac Ascendant

    Joined:
    Nov 9, 2017
    Messages:
    260
    Likes Received:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Web Designer
    Location:
    Europe
    This is such a fickle subject... My opinion on this is as follows

    If AIR really is a faction-centric game, then I believe some form of PvP should ultimately be inevitable, because said factions will likely have some kind of conflict with each other. I believe it wouldn't make much sense to split server types into PvE and PvP then and as mentioned I still think it would unnecessarily split communities even more than channels will anyways. Also, as was said above, many guilds have players that like both, or either PvE and PvP, splitting guilds apart like that would probably do more harm than good.

    I like how games like RF Online handled faction PvP. You generally could not kill your own faction. You could BUY a potion (for relatively much money) that would let you flag on your own faction for a limited amount of time, your name would become red and anyone in your faction was able to attack you as well, without penalties. Your faction elected leaders that had a strike team, a defense team and higher-ups as well as a race leader. These elected people were responsible for your faction territories defense, as well as raiding enemy races.

    Multiple times a day would be a "Race War" where all factions would gather at their faction base, they would have a relic and once the "war" started you had to kill the other faction's relic. The faction whose relic was first destroyed loses. Getting a last hit on the enemy relic would net your race a win (if I remember correctly). It was a very intricate system and a lot of fun.

    For killing enemy players you would then gain points, the more points the higher your rank within your faction etc. The lower level your enemy, the less points you got, the higher level the enemy the more points you got.



    Now, if AIR should only has loosely rooted factions then I guess a system like that wouldn't make much sense.
    I also liked what Lineage II did with their PvP system, it was FFA and there were no real factions in that sense.

    You could flag on people anywhere (literally, except towns afaik) then your name would turn purple. If people hit you back (retaliated) their name would also turn purple. If they decided not to and were PK'd, then the guys name would turn bright red and he would be denied entry to towns as guards would hunt him. When you killed an enemy players, depending on their level, you would gain Karma. The more Karma, the redder your name would become. You lost Karma by killing monsters in your appropriate level range. That means if you hunted low level players in a zone way below your own level, you then would have no real means of getting rid of said karma. Also if you PK'd often enough and would then die, you had a chance of losing items you either had equipped or were in your inventory.

    I thought it was a great system and it felt relatively fair. People were careful with PKing as it had great risks.

    I'm just hoping that if AIR does implement some kind of OWPVP (which I hope it will) that the system in place will be throughly thought through.
     
  10. Delu

    Delu Ascendant

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2017
    Messages:
    40
    Likes Received:
    33
    Gender:
    Female
    ^This


    ^ In Theory this sounds good, but practically i am afraid it won't work because if you are a "No Name Casual PVE Player with a little PVE Guild" no one will come to help you or only "help for cash/materials/armor or sth like that"

    I agree with that in 100%

    Flagging systems mostly not work well (for PVE players is this equally annoying like for PVP Players because it is no protection against ganks/kills) Imagine this Situation: PVP Player is Flagged and attack an unflagged PVE Player. Mostly (not all, i know) the PVE Player try to run or let the player kill him, but mostly don't fight back...(normally the PVP Player kills the PVE Player) Then the PVE Player is upset to get killed and PVP Player is upset to get penalties... Everyone is pissed off, no one have fun...

    In my opinion it will be the best option to have separeted PVE and PVP server.This will have less issues than combining both communities. :)
     
    Primal likes this.
  11. Ayuna

    Ayuna Ascendant

    Joined:
    Nov 20, 2017
    Messages:
    49
    Likes Received:
    39
    I see, as I am not a PvPer, I hadn't thought about that. I guess two servers would be the best option then. I was thinking about that flagging system WoW is doing next expansion, where you basically only see either people who flagged themselves for PvP (or those who didn't).
     
  12. Primal

    Primal Ascendant

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2017
    Messages:
    11
    Likes Received:
    25
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    EBONGUARD.COM
    I've read your replies in other related topics, and a split server would be ideal for players like you who want to completely avoid PvP. Non-consensual OWPvP is a lot different monster than playing the flag game or having safe zones people can skirt (i.e. BDO). To players like myself and my guild, having that extra layer of danger makes the game much more enjoyable. It's a constant feeling of action, and being able to sit back safe and just grind mobs with the same rotations in the openworld is considered boring (to me). I am not saying I am for a lawless and complete sandbox world, but I think player-policing is the best method to have the community built stronger, and any penalties should require social and community interaction to overcome (this is an MMO after all). This is why I suggest equipment degradation as a penalty so that it forces both PvP and PvE players to cooperate. Old MMOs were built around this, and EvE is thriving on the concept.




    Seasonal is a term I shouldn't have used in the context of MMORPGs, I meant them as a time duration, such as Season 1 equaling 3-4 months with a 2 week break in-between. More akin to FPS games, or sports in general.




    Bounty-hunter system is very ArcheAge-esque, and like you said, I've seen it in several games but I've also seen it as a disaster. The problem with most systems in how it affects the PvP community is that it takes time away from a player. There is nothing that will kill an MMO more than telling a player they have to sit in jail for (x) amount of hours, or have to wait for their karma to deplete with no way to help it along themselves. I'm going to keep on the subject of equipment degradation because it feels like the best middle ground, but in this instance you can at least work towards re-crafting or repairing your armor, and not being forced to log off to sit out a timer.

    The Special Server concept is actually very similar to what a crowdfunded game (Crowfall) has put out as a core concept. If gear is easily acquired (Gold and exp is 2000% bonus on what they listed here), and classes are balanced, not everyone is afraid of starting fresh again. Almost every MMO goes through the phase where they are population deprived and "reintroduces" the game with a major patch and new servers to get everyone in. I think ArcheAge was the last one to do this. Being able to reset the button every 3-4 months with a new set of rules, radical balancing changes, etc. is an exciting concept. Once you're at end game in most MMO's, especially themeparks, you're just doing the same grind waiting for the next content drop. Especially in a game where PvP can be brought in for sieges and territory control, guilds will hegemonize and control an area for as long as its around, and they usually have compounding bonuses for being in control, too...keeping them in control. Resetting allows everyone to start on the same footing again, build new alliances, and keeps it fresh




    That is the downfall to that system, players who are solo will have a harder time. However, this is an MMO, there should be nothing wrong with encouraging cooperation and becoming part of a guild. If anything that builds a stronger and longer lasting community.
     
    xDrac and Stricken like this.
  13. loser

    loser Ascendant

    Joined:
    Nov 10, 2017
    Messages:
    20
    Likes Received:
    9
    reading the rest of your post, i think i understand what it is you want a little more now. however, you have a clearly different goal than the intended one of these servers. these are meant to be short lived event servers which use very different rulesets/mechanics from the main ones, in order to try them out while also giving players something fun and different to do, in ways otherwise not possible without heavily disrupting the main servers.

    i'm not necessarily against the "seasonal" server, though, but i highly doubt that will ever be a thing for this game, for a variety of reasons.
     
  14. Primal

    Primal Ascendant

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2017
    Messages:
    11
    Likes Received:
    25
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    EBONGUARD.COM
    If you have the time you could expand on these reasons to bring another side to this conversation. The system is already in place and Jouska has given us a little more insight beyond the original post on what his intentions are with it. Community feedback could be valuable, and I think extending the time on these special servers to allow what I am describing would be within the realm of possibility.
     
  15. loser

    loser Ascendant

    Joined:
    Nov 10, 2017
    Messages:
    20
    Likes Received:
    9
    what you're asking turns it into an entirely different game with its own server(s). instead of a quick and simple event server, it becomes something that requires much more thought and work. you're asking to pull a large percentage of the playerbase away from the main servers for months at a time, which means this new server now needs its own management, maintenance, moderation, and monetization system (as it'll be up for most of the year, behaves very differently from the main game, and has scheduled wipes). it completely defeats the original purpose.

    again, the idea in here isn't BAD, but it would require much more thought, effort, and work, when the main game itself isn't even completed. at best this is to be a completely different idea from the special servers planned, which can be considered much further down the road.
     
  16. Primal

    Primal Ascendant

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2017
    Messages:
    11
    Likes Received:
    25
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    EBONGUARD.COM

    I do not recall if it was ever actually posted how long those special servers intend to be up. Jouska did mention he was leaning towards cosmetics being given out for participation on these servers, and I do not see the dev team putting too much effort into a new set of cosmetics or titles for something that will only last 2-3 weeks. I could be wrong, though. I do see there being an issue with monetization though, as you've pointed out. It all comes down to what ends up being in the cash shop. If something lasts 60 days or is permanent, someone has to determine if it could be transferred or used on a different server if it's before expiration.
     
  17. Mishee

    Mishee Ascendant

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2017
    Messages:
    14
    Likes Received:
    2
    Gender:
    Male
    No, don´t split servers. Just make so you can only kill other that is maxed level.
     
  18. loser

    loser Ascendant

    Joined:
    Nov 10, 2017
    Messages:
    20
    Likes Received:
    9
    the only things we know right now are that the current special servers will be up for a total of three days (which admittedly doesn't necessarily mean anything at this point), and that jouska said the servers will be of "limited duration." again, i think giving these servers near 100% uptime completely goes against that, and defeats their purpose. it's not that i couldn't be wrong, but i just can't see it being the case currently.

    handing out cosmetics/titles for events is pretty much the norm in mmos. i can't think of an mmo i've played where they did not have some sort of seasonal event that lasted a couple weeks with some quest(s) to do or new minigame(s) to play, and get a small cosmetic reward at the end of it. i see these special servers as a sort of extension to that, but it would allow for many more possibilities without potentially disrupting the main servers. making a couple accessories to hand out for these wouldn't take much effort, and certainly handing out titles would take none at all.

    e: forgot this quote from jouska:
    "Currently, these servers are not intended to be permanent homes for players; they offer a new approach to player driven events as well as a testing platform."
     
    Last edited: Dec 20, 2017
  19. Cyn

    Cyn Ascendant

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2017
    Messages:
    9
    Likes Received:
    13
    Gender:
    Female
    S
    So no PvP until max level? Ehhhhh, I’m not for that at all. Do I want to smash others lower levels than me? No. But I also don’t want to have to hit max level and wait for others to hit max level before I can smash peoples face in.
     
  20. Luciferia

    Luciferia Ascendant

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2017
    Messages:
    17
    Likes Received:
    6
    They said sometime earlier that it only takes 20-30 hours to hit max level. Its just a long tutorial. So won't be much of a wait.
     

Share This Page