Please launch as buy to Play

Discussion in 'Gameplay Discussions' started by Potato9000, Aug 5, 2019.

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  1. YukieNakama

    YukieNakama Ascendant

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    I have played betas/alphas for Nexon Like Closers,Hyper Universe, Maplestory, Kurtzpei, and Riders of Icarus.

    Burning Soulworker is better than Closers but they are almost identical in content. It is the difference between a game that is not trying to get people to buy everything in their item mall and people that do. Nexon made the same mistake that En Masse did with Closers in the US and Kritika Online. It became a game of who was willing to pay for it. It was not event based it was "here is what is available in the item mall this week". It was centered on outfits but their outfits have buffs. It is basically like buying gear.

    I played both Silkroad and Twelve Sky for 2 years each, I have played the PVP centric games and they greatly lack character. The game becomes more about finding the best bully group on the block to bragging about your +12 gear. I have found games that have both PVP and PVE elements where the PVE was more challenging. Anyone who has tried to solve the puzzles in Clockwork City on ESO would never called PVE easy or passing the exams for the higher levels of Warframe. Hardcore does not mean that people have to face eachother in battle.

    It is just a preference on game content. If you have a large group of friends to play the game with then pvp can be enlightening but if you are alone then trying to navigate through the process of finding the right alliance/guild that is competent enough to play the mechanics of the game is highly exhausting.
    https://quanticfoundry.com/2018/08/01/casual-hardcore/

    There was a study found when coming across what people found were the motivations for hardcore games "So for men, playing a game seriously means being able to beat other players at it. For women, playing a game seriously is more likely to mean having completed and done everything there is to do in a game, and to leave traces of your personal flair in the game while doing it. For Hardcore female gamers, playing a game seriously is more akin to patiently creating and curating a work of art. And it’s a powerfully evocative alternative to how we typically conceptualize what a “hardcore gamer” is." - I agree with this perfectly. I am a player who is a completionist. When I play a game I want to do all aspects of the game and often with a personal cosmetic flair. It isnt about beating other people at the game it is about completing everything in the game to its fullest.

    "The gaming community tends to define Hardcore using the male gamer lens, so there’s inevitably a tautologous conclusion that male gamers are more likely to be Hardcore. But this leads to distortions in making sense of actual gaming behavior. For example, in a study of 7,000+ EverQuest 2 players that my colleagues and I conducted, we found that female MMO gamers spent more hours playing per week and were less likely to consider quitting. But ironically, it was precisely the most frequent and loyal gamers who got stereotyped as being “casuals”." - So looks like you emulate the standard view on the community as you seem to continually be under the assumption that I am some sort of casual player or not "hardcore" enough.
    It is an interesting study you should check it out.
     
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  2. Lointaine

    Lointaine Ascendant

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    Let's look at this realistically, there will be p2w elements by this definition in A:IR. Reagardless if it'll start as b2p, will be p2p or f2p.
    The mmorpgs nowadays are just like that. And I don't think A:IR may be the game to change that, it's way too expensive and big to allow itself such revolutions.

    The extent of those p2w elemenst is the question though.

    I'm all for organized pvp like sieges/arenas/championships since it drives economy (even though I'm 99.95% unlikely to participate in those activities myself), but openworld pvp is a big no-no for me. If A:IR faction system will mean the considerable part of the world being closed for me because of owpvp, then the game is not for me at all.

    My priorities are... probably... actually hard to sort ><'' I'll use BDO (Black Deset), FFO (Final Fantasy 14 Online) and ToS (Tree of Savior) as examples.
    1) Cooperative playability. BDO is barely okay. FFO and ToS are both good for cooperative.
    2) No OwPVP. BDO is thin borderline bearable (but still bad). FFO and ToS are both good.
    3) Gameplay (in terms of combat gameplay and character building). It shall be fun (for me). ToS is really good, BDO is ok, FFO is nightmare.
    4) Focus on openworld, exploration, diversity of activities and lore-like quests rather than linear world and linear big questline about the character. Better no necessary questlines to move on at least. BDO and ToS are quite good overall (both have their pros and cons), FFO is nightmare.
    5) Character appearance customization in terms of both appearance editor and available costumes. BDO is quite good, ToS and FFO are both kinda okayish.

    My personal opinion is that quests are unnecessary for good mmorpg at all. I played RO for years without even knowing that quests do exist. I know, it's an unpopular opinion, and I'm not really AGAINST quests, they can add more goals and flavour to the game. But I am kinda against those stories of the chosen one enforced onto me again and again. I do not want to be one of game's 1 million chosen ones, let me just roleplay as I like to ><
     
    Last edited: Nov 18, 2019
  3. YukieNakama

    YukieNakama Ascendant

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    Quests are a random grab bag of good and crap. When I played older MMOs, Quests were crap. Traditional MMOs Quests were crap. They had no storyline and they were just random errand jobs and you are forced do them just so you could get the rewards ie outfits, boots, money. Other crappy quests pull you into the story but the story they do is so boring that you skip the scenes because you just want to finish it and be over with. There are a small percentage of games where they do well with Questing. They do well for different reasons.
    Examples
    1. Borderlands - freaking absolutely hilarious. Some of the side quests are so funny that I have repeated them for every new character I have made. It also brings in some lore that are neat to find out.
    2. ESO- Some of the stories get very repetitive but most of the storylines are fascinating and they are not required to level. People can choose what area to go into and drive into their lore and if that storyline doesnt interest you then you go to another area. The ESO expansions actually give a Path of Exile style to the storyline where the game actually changes based on how far you are in the storyline.
    3. Warframe - The storyline does not need to be taken to play the game but it is so fascinating that most of it is something that you want to do and repeat.
    4. Secret World Legends - The quests can both be awesome and frustrating but they are very unique in their ability to make you think and often use guoogle.

    poor Examples
    1. Final Fantasy - only way to play the game is linear with the quests. there is no way around them and at least 2 of the expansions that I have done were mostly boring and the cutscenes were repetitive
    2. LOTR/WOW - Classic questing of "you want to fight the battle go to this location and kill x amount" again no way around them because it is the quickest way to get rewards and level.
    3. Closers - The 20 levels of quests to teach you how to play the game then the repeat instances similar to Kritika. I do not mind a game giving the basics if someone wants to learn but making it required is a pain especially when you make more than one character.

    Questing like PVP is a love them or hate them with little imbetween. Both of them ends up forced upon people and get similar reactions.
    I find Questing useful as a way to immerse the lore and navigate the world.I prefer the combination between questing and open world exploration as questing provides flavor to the environment and helps direct the player towards areas that may interest their level.
    IF anyone is interested they should look into Book of Travels.
     
    Last edited: Nov 19, 2019
  4. Lointaine

    Lointaine Ascendant

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    5. Ragnarok Online quests (~up to Morroc destruction at least) were actually really great. Even though they were often really hard to do since no markers and quest logs. But they were 100% optional. And I'd also say that most of them didn't worth a penny progress-wise (they did give some amount of exp, but it was a drop in the ocean, and most of the times not time-effective at all), because, well, they were just interesting to do for a change. Some questlines were required to access some locations though.
    The main catch for me was how different stories from different places, small and big ones, do connect together into the huge 'story' and 'image'. You complete one story, and then you can understand another story better and deeper. It was't that much about player, it was about the world itself. And I feel that for mmorpgs that's the only right way to make quests.

    :(
    I tend to forget how restrictive modern mmos are in terms of player level. It really cuts down the exploration. You're right, if there's only a couple of location useful to each level, that's good to have quests to point them out at least.

    Oh, I've just remembered about autolevel feature. I hate that xD
     
    Last edited: Nov 19, 2019
  5. Eternal

    Eternal Ascendant

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    Ok, let's get back into the topic of this thread! This game is never going Buy to Play because doing so in this company's point of view is gating more potential customers from trying the game so they can spend in the Cash Shop. A box-price cannot provide frequent transaction with customers as it is for one-off sale only! If there are considerable number of people who will not try the game because of this box-price, it is a loss to these greedy companies.

    All these companies think about--I'm talking about Kakao Games, Playpark (Asiasoft), and Krafton--are nothing but profit! It is for this very reason why A:IR has been designed the way it is! No quality-orientation at all! For a game that has no quality-orientation, for companies that have no customer-satisfaction and long-term customer-base, they might as well milk the game dry as much as they can milk it for!

    This is the reality! Wake up!

    And even if this game will be Free to Play, I am never touching it! I care about it's quality for it to be worth my time! It will be competing in the MMO market, and base on everything this game has showed me, this game has nothing that makes it stand out.

    Whatever kind of monetization this game will have, it is a waste of my f*cking time!

    How about competing for my time first before my pocket?! How do you do that? By making a game that is overall quality enough!
     
  6. Rainwolf

    Rainwolf Ascendant

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    Hi, to me, F2P or B2P does not really matter, it really depends on the Bluehole. but pay-to-win is not acceptable at all. usually, F2P means P2W in China. Yes, I had played some Chinese MMORPG and spent quite a lot of money, I assure you, P2W will destroy a game within a few months man, and I will definitely not gonna play any form of P2W games. the best mode of F2P games is only selling something like outfits, skins or mounts.
     
  7. Eternal

    Eternal Ascendant

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    Let me ask you a question: When Bless came out in Steam EA, wasn't it not Pay to Win or just very mildly Pay to Win? Why did it fail then?

    Ofcourse, we not only need a f*cking game that is not Pay to Win (or to an extent, mild), we also need a quality game that will be sustained for long-term!

    If these companies cannot deliver on that, then this game is everything futile! Pay to Win or not, it is a waste of my f*cking time!
     
  8. Laguna

    Laguna Ascendant

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    BLESS Online was not Pay-to-Win but had countless issues in many areas :

    - Poorly optimized to the point of being hardly playable with modern setups without assigning a lot of different numerical values inside the ".ini" files
    - 70 millions of dollars of development budget making this MMO one of the ten most expansive MMO in the world outside Crowdfunding/Kickstarter campaigns
    - Failed by the past 2 times in Korea, 1 time in Russia and was about to die in Japan before being launched on Steam for NA and EU players
    - Launched on Steam with Founder's Packs whose the highest one was sold 200$ without any good reason and quickly reduced to 150$ (still expansive remembering the previous fails)
    - Sold on Steam as the latest playable version of BLESS different than the other regions but was basically a scam with a different UI and many restrictions applied to the gameplay
    - Devs intentionally removed a lot of content in order to make the playerbase believe that a lot of content was regularly added while the game studio was in reality about to stop the development of the game in Korea and used this trick to make the most gullible of us think the contrary
    - Many flaws regarding security and defenses against hacks, some players could fly (not a feature), speedhack the game, duplicate golds (even unintentionally since their auction house was made in HTML and couldn't handle many requests at launch resulting in a lot of duping errors)
    - Neowiz (devs) had no idea about what they were doing and, despite multiple attempts of revamp, they never managed to improve their game but only made it worse in 9 years of developped first initiated in 2009
    - BLESS quickly went Free-to-Play in less than a year and sold another Founder's Packs as expansive as before while it was clearly dying
    - BLESS Unleashed is the console version of BLESS Online and actually has better graphics and gameplay mainly because it's based on Unreal Engine 4 while the PC one is on Unreal Engine 3
    - [...]
     
    Last edited: Dec 1, 2019
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  9. Eternal

    Eternal Ascendant

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    And thus it didn't worked! If A:IR is to theoretically come out the same way -- without or mildly Pay to Win -- but with ridiculous systems and game-design as it has now, it is destined for the same fate!

    Look at my points:

    - No direct Player-to-Player Trading meaning playerbase can never mutually barter in the game, nor give/receive assets. Auction House serves as a facility for sales/purchases -- not barter, which is not the same thing -- with enforced tax. This is very limiting to the playerbase economy as the Trading System of the game is very centralized!

    - Very limiting Rythmic Combat for everything including vehicles. Most skills have ridiculously long GCDs that the game forces you to Stance Dance. The Combat is not dynamic, it is nothing but Rythmic! A Combat like this is really comparable to the Combat that we had in Bless NA/EU! By the way, the Combat in Bless Unleashed sucks as it is also designed to be Rythmic and limiting -- one of the main reason why I will never try that game off!

    - Worst Drop System I have ever seen in an MMORPG! In regards to distribution of the drops in a group, the game has what you call a "Pure Random Loot System" which means the game just assigns loots to every single party members randomly. All Boss Drops work this way. This is worse than "First Come First Serve", this is worse than "Need Before Greed"! The Loot System of this game is pure b*ll sh*t that it feels like single-player!

    - Plagued with session-based chores meaning your activities in the game are dictated by these repetitive routines! It also forces you to do them by their incentives! The game is not seamless, neither it is dynamic, it is limited by session-based and time-gated mechanics! You've already tried them in almost all Modern MMOs -- do systems like this work? I don't know, you tell me!

    - All Equipments in the game are Character-Bound after worn once with no mechanics to unbound. If you are never gonna use them so they can remain tradeable, they have no intrinsic value; if you use them which will make them untradeable, they have no market/economic value. What kind of assets are these? Single-player possessions or tradeable fool's gold?

    -Progression System is nothing but linear with lack of theorycrafting! I also have to mention that this is a Themepark MMO meaning it is designed to be linear!

    This is how Gearing System works: you upgrade to higher-tier Equipments by transferring Gear Enhancements to higher-tier Equipments with loss of Enhancement Level/s according to tier-difference between 2 Gears, destroying the lower-tier one. This is nothing but linear Gear Progression!

    The same goes for the Life-Skills, Estate, and Crafting -- they are all interconnected that you have to do all of them as this is how the game is designed -- there is no specialization! Again, this is linear progression for those!

    All kinds of progression in the game are linear that the game has very little to no theorycrafting!

    - The game has too much gold-sink that everything you do in the game requires gold. To be able to do anything, the game will have to extort you! How the f*ck are you supposed to grow your Assets with a system like this? Would you play an MMO with a system full of extortion?

    Craft something, it will costs you gold. Fuse Runestones, it will costs you gold. Sell something in the AH, it will tax you gold. Even upgrading anything from any of the progression system will costs you gold. You cannot do anything in this game without gold!

    - The PVP of the game sucks! It has no Risk vs Reward! Not to mention the scale is only around 50 vs 50 max which is nothing! Revelation Online China has 1000 vs 1000, Archeage has 500 vs 500, but because this game wants free-aiming with 3D collision-check on the vehicles, the scale is ridiculous! There is no large-scale PVP, the PVP of the game sucks systematically, I wouldn't call this a PVP game! This is a PVE game, sh*t the f*ck up!

    - ... I have too much to lists but these are only the few. The game as it is is broken! Everything I listed is about limitations that this devs chose on their own to apply! The game is not good man, it's so broken that it's not gonna lasts long! And here they are, "accelerating" the game!
     
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2019
  10. Lointaine

    Lointaine Ascendant

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    Okay, a bit different point of view.

    While I see it as troublesome a bit, I don't see this as a big problem.

    Erm... so what?

    That's a great thing by itself. There's no such thing as too much gold sink.

    On your other points, I'd mostly agree.
     
  11. Eternal

    Eternal Ascendant

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    Perhaps you don't know the difference between Barter and a Transaction. With an Auction House and nothing else, you can only do the later and that's it.

    Barter = Goods : Goods
    Transfer = Player's Goods and/or Gold => other Player
    Transaction = Goods : Gold; Gold : Goods

    This is how restrictive it is that you are only limited to transactions!

    Let's also not forget the 35% AH Sales Tax (5% if you have Star Blessing Package which is an Account Premium). In Final Fantasy XI--an MMO that has an Auction-based Economy-- has a Sales Fee of only 1% and 0.5% on stacked items which are not significant enough to hurt the sellers. Tell me, do you enjoy paying taxes in real-life and would you enjoy to do it on a game at such a ridiculous rate at 35%?

    Let me remind you again: 35% Sales Tax, or 5% Sales Tax and be obligated to pay for Account Premium every month at 30,000 Ruby to slash off that staggering 30%.

    And this is what you're telling me: "it's troublesome a bit" and "I don't see this as a big problem" -- are you insane? I can see that this system has been designed the way it is in order to incentivize people to spend on Account Premium on recurring basis, and even with this, the 5% that will be left still hurts!

    Account Premium is a privilege that reduces your Sales Tax by 30%, a privilege to those who will pay for it on a monthly basis! 30% is too high to ignore!

    It's not an MMORPG Drop System because assigning loots to each player removes the interaction, that's the f*cking point! If players co-exist in the same persistent world, loots that are dropped should be accessible to all of them. The system of "who gets what" is another topic of discussion.

    Pure Random Loot System is a single-player drop system, this is a f*cking "MMO", "so what?"?

    Oh, so you intend to defend this horrible system using the excuse of "inflation in MMO economy"? Yet you play Ragnarok Online pre-Renewal, a game that is not limited and without limitations to it's player-driven economy and talked about enjoying it's game-design and system here? I don't f*cking know what you want, it seems to me that you are vying for limitations!

    Leave the Supply of Gold to the free market! Not dictate it with so much of this Gold-Sink at such a humongous number of ways that it starts hurting player's assets!

    Economic freedom is better than a dictated economy and coersion over the supply of Gold! I bet one of the reason you like Ragnarok Online is because of it's economic freedom that is entirely player-driven!

    You people prefer a communist economic system by continuing to white-knight the enormous gold-sink of this game, the ridiculous 35% sales tax, and limiting trading through only transactions! You prefer limitations on the economy because you f*cking people are a bunch of communists, I prefer a player-driven economy like in Ragnarok Online!
     
  12. Eternal

    Eternal Ascendant

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    Basically everything I listed is about limitations. To defend even a number of them means you prefer a limited MMO! One of the most severe problems with A:IR is it's a very limiting game! To even defend it's limitations--as if they are doing the game any good--means you want the game to be designed the way it already is!

    If this is your preference, I can't blame you! You will succumb to this cash-grab piece of trash while I won't touch it!
     
  13. Lointaine

    Lointaine Ascendant

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    I don't see it as being too restrictive if players are able to choose prices freely.
    Huge taxes (and p2w ways to lower them) are another detail; you can make absolutely anything bad in details. That's not a problem of the auction system itself, and I didn't say a word about huge taxes being ok (I'd say up to 10% is okay. Maybe like 15% without their premium and 10% with it would look acceptable. 35->5% difference is definitely robbery).

    I can see why being limited to auction bothers you, but I don't see it being too problematic for modern mmo overall.
    Just to clarify again: I was talking about system itself. If you want to emphasizecertain taxes problem - then yes, it's not too good. If you just want to be right by changing your points midway, it's ok, too.

    It's not. That's just 'random distribution' kind of system. It's probably not the best, but well, personally I would be able to live with that. From my experience, aside of quite horrible 'grab it first' that's actually one of the most useful system, especially if auctions/barters work well.

    Ragnarok Online had ENORMOUS sinks. Upgrade sinks (payment&materials for upgrades, items being destroyed on fail), consumable sinks (no CD on consumables and also really expensive consumables; as biochemist I was able to spend millions of zeny equivalent in a matter of hour). That's exactly why economy was able to stay stable for years until renewal finally crashed it.
    Of course, not all of it was directly 'gold'-sinks, but there wasn't even direct zeny drops to begin with.
    Money/item sinks are not limitations, that's what allows items to retain their price for extended period of time WITHOUT using methods such as character/account binding.
    Of course it's unnecessary burden for let's say modern TERA type of games when your items and work is obsolete after each new patch anyway; and those games use heavy binding on pickup/equip, too. But for me that's not a good path.

    So yes, I'm saying that ones who want 'no gold sinks' either don't understand what they're saying (since you refer to RO, I think that's your case) or want to play standart instance-smasher, linear and prone to all p2w mechanics in the world. With quite dead economy since nothing (besides maybe cash shop costumes) really has a price.

    Also judging by your words, your problems with this game are not said mechanics by themselves, but really poor (well, I shall say 'common for modern mmos' sadly) realization of them. That's certainly another point to discuss.

    P.S. I feel kinda flattered being called a communist. I think I don't deserve it yet.
     
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2019

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