Please launch as buy to Play

Discussion in 'Gameplay Discussions' started by Potato9000, Aug 5, 2019.

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  1. Eternal

    Eternal Ascendant

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    @Arika Try to close your mind again, ok! Read the comments on every platform this game is featured on and you won't hear much positive comments on the game. If you are telling me that my opinion sits on the minority side in this genre, think again! Maybe I am the minority here in this dead forum with a number of white-knights and die-hard supporters of A:IR--we also have those kinds in Bless and Astellia--but I assure you that if you look beyond your cult here, almost everyone frown upon this game!

    Go read the comments on this video that is positively biased about this game and you will get the picture that most people are negatively impressed!


    Most people just do not like this game and the direction it is going! To grind salt to the wound, Krafton Game Union and Kakao Games are terrible companies whom you just cannot put your trust into when they can endanger the long-term of their games and your investment in them highly likely -- just look at what happened in the past and how they make decisions! This game doesn't look good gameplay-wise--and I did played the Beta--, the development roadmap is a disappointment along with the development progress of this game, there is a huge chance of almost absolute that the monetization it will have will affect gameplay--it is bound for a F2P after all!--and the companies behind this game have bad reputation and have no quality-orientation, and furthermore they do not communicate with the player-base at all!

    There are so many things about them and about this game that is despicable to list. This is why I'm so negative and bashing this game in this forum and other platforms to put them down as they are deserving of it! This game, as it is, belongs in the abyss! OBT for this game is coming out on Korea and Thailand before 2020 and the condition it's in is not looking good! The game, how they designed it, how they continue to design it, is beyond fixed! It's just like Bless--it's beyond fixed!

    now, I offer you a proposition @Arika:
    which is it: the blue pill or the red pill or are you just succumbed to the blue one?
     
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2019
  2. Eternal

    Eternal Ascendant

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    As I have spoken before, feasible or not feasible, you are trying to modify an F5 to 4th-gen capabilities! Why not f*cking use your head and do what is efficient to stop wasting resources and get a f*cking Rafale or something like that within the same generation. It's not worth it man and it's never worth it! Lifting a 100-pound box by yourself to move it to a location and lifting it with 2 people and putting it on a cart to move it to a location are both feasible! -- I'm not saying it can't be done! It's not f*cking worth it! You are wasting f*cking resources to meet the same end! What? These resources don't take away from something else that should have been better allocated? Something that could have improved this game for the better?

    I have no confidence in their engine, and I'm not myopic -- this can impact the long-term development of the game and I will not invest in any MMO that has no continuous development! This engine will put too much drag on this f*cker! That's another thing I cannot trust -- their garbage inefficient engine!
     
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2019
  3. YukieNakama

    YukieNakama Ascendant

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    Comparative B2P vs F2P Model Examples and Options

    Successful F2P Models

    1. Path of Exile

    2. Warframe

    3. Secret World Legends

    4. Burning Soulworker

    Failed F2P

    1. Dragon Oath

    2. Age of Wulin

    3. Age of Wushu

    4. Dragon Sky

    5. Silkroad

    6. Rappelz

    7. Revelation Online

    8. Twelve Sky

    9. Closers (steam)

    10. Aura Kingdome

    11. Kritika

    F2P Toxic thus mostly avoided

    1. League of Legends

    2. DOTA2

    3. World of Tanks

    4. Eve Online


    Key features on Free to Play model that cause failure

    1. Inability to translate the game to meet the locality – Eastern world and Western world are different. There are things that western culture will accept in a game that Eastern will not play or it simply will not last long. This includes high pay to win aspects, long grinding, and cooperative pvp that requires massive groups. (see 12sky 9 tier pagoda or Revelation online and the instances that required massive group cooperation to obtain key gear)

    2. Pay to Win shop – Everyone here knows what that is, it may be certain potions needed to upgrade or enchant gear only able to be found in the shop and cost cheap while it takes months or a year to obtain that same item in game or not at all. I do not include cosmetics, extra bag space/inventory (as long as the bag space is reasonable)

    3. Severe bugs - Many free to play models will throw out a game that isn’t ready

    4. Important updates takes months or years to show up - people will max out and sit there with nothing to do but they will get the promise that an update will be here, but the update will not come. It is necessary to get updates that will keep the quick leveling players interested while making new players not feel overwhelmed.

    5. Company changes hands. - EU and NA players will play games when they are released on the western side and get excited about the game, but then the game changes hands to a company known for massive pay to win, changing updates that make buying in the shop more necessary, and therefore ruin the game. Anyone who has played enough MMOs have certain companies that they will avoid because of their reputation.

    6. Placing their game on Steam too early – Steams reviewers settings are not well setup. Any person and their brother can review a game regardless of if they have played the game or not. There have been games that have been simply avoided because people see the reviews for things as simple as “we just released the game so yes there may be bugs but we are working on it” but apparently not fast enough

    7. Bots, Scammers, Phishers – When a game is free, it is easier for bots to be created and if the map is open rather than instanced, bots can take over locations with the best drops and interfere with game play. They also can cause annoying spam in towns. This is a higher issue in free games and is by no means eliminated with B2P model

    8. Community Toxicity – Many people do not play MMOs to play in a group but to solo the game and then maybe hangout with other people. Forced activities that games often do to create a welcoming community often backfire and generate competitiveness and toxicity.

    What makes a game successful for free to play?

    1. Free Market or Limited Trade – Warframe and POE are sides of two different coins. Warframe enables those who are very driven and online to be able to sell and buy items that they have obtained in a market regulated by players not by the game itself. This model allows the game to flow as an organism. Path of Exile takes a game without money and breaks your drops down into things that can be recombined. Path of Exile leans more towards soloing while Warframe needs a network for the items to flow

    2. Balanced Item Shop – Shops need to grab the attention of players that would like to put money into the game for things but not give them so much of an advantage that it causes free players to drop the game

    3. Constant Updates and Paying Attention to Community Needs – Community gives feedback at all levels and it is important for a company to read through all of it and find out what is really necessary to improve the game and who is just complaining. The Updates also need to be regular to hold onto players who bounce between F2P games.

    4. Game Content that evolves with the Player as they level – Many older game models had a problem that once a player reached a certain level, their options were very limited on what to do. It seemed like the journey was simply to grind up to a level, farm for the gear you want, then pvp to show off your build.

    5. Cooperative Community – People play games for all different kinds of reasons at all demographics and schedules and a game that can be able to balance between allowing the Whale/Competitive players to enjoy themselves along with the hard working parent who can only work on weekends and the teenagers who pop on after school will keep the community growing. There is nothing worse for a community than only catering to those people who have no life or only the competitive players.



    Alternative Models that have been successful

    F2P then B2P Model

    Wow and Elder Scrolls Online have had this model. It encourages free players to enjoy the game until a certain level then they have to buy it to keep enjoying the adventure. I think that this model is the best for most games as it allows free players to enjoy the game but gives players that B2P the ability to feel like their game is not going anywhere. What I mean to say is, there are A LOT of F2P games that come out every here in all shapes and sizes. People play them and hope that they will be better than what they have seen, but then they see the issues from all the past F2P and they drop the game then the game disappears either 1. Game stops updating and they focus on the Eastern side 2. Game becomes toxic and eventually tanks 3. The company comes out with a sequel to “improve” on the previous one but that only ends in disappointment. When someone buys the game, it feels tangible as they feel like they will always own it to play it and think that the game will be regularly updated because of that purchase. Common players do not understand that amount of back end development and years of working on a project and they tend to see what is tangible. If a game is paid for, it means that it had a lot of work put into it and therefore will be regularly updated (in their mind).

    B2P Model

    There are two main types of B2P models: The monthly fee model and the one-time fee

    ESO has both models as it has a premium feature for monthly payments

    Most Monthly Models include all expansions for a low monthly costs so a player can play the game then drop it to play something else then later come back to their character to play again.

    1. ESO

    2. WOW

    3. Final Fantasy Online

    Buy Once and Done

    1. ESO (if you don’t get the premium packages)

    2. BDO

    3. Guild Wars 2

    Why to people pick B2P or monthly fee models over F2P (summarizing)

    1. Little to no P2W aspects in the item mall

    2. Players feel confident that the game will be regularly cared for and updated

    3. Restricted community – game has a higher than average age range and tighter communities

    4. Players believe that other players will stay in the game long term because they paid for the game and feel they need to get their money’s worth

    5. Communities contain less Toxicity, Bots, and Spammers

    Note: I say this with experience playing MMOs for the last 20 years at all different Models. Any game that I have listed I have played. I think that the right game can be f2p, but most of the time it fails. I cannot tell you how many alpha and beta testing games that I have done only to find out that they dropped like a rock on release because of the above. I have found that the f2p then b2p or the b2p is more consistent in success. I know some people down this chat discuss graphics and unreal engine, but the graphics only matter to those whom it always mattered for. Which means if they see the trailer for the game they will be interested or repulsed immediately. I am only looking at the cost of the game and what happens when you are in the game. My personal graphics viewpoint is not relevant. I have played terraria, minecraft, secrets of grindea, borderlands series, and I have played games with higher end realistic character features (ESO, Final Fantasy Online, Eve online...etc). Graphics are rarely the clincher for me to purchase the game unless they are really awful.
     
    Last edited: Nov 12, 2019
  4. Eternal

    Eternal Ascendant

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    @YukieNakama 20 years of experience playing MMOs? We have about the same amount of experience! Same amount of experience but I don't think we have the same playstyle at all because I could not relate to most of your preferences. That's fine, we all have different playstyles, but when an MMO is catering to the casuals in order for them to grab the most audiences--as majority of players are casuals--designing the gameplay and the game-mechanics in a way to please them in expense of us the dedicated and the equity of gameplay system which is supposed to be competitive as what a "game" should be. This is my f*cking problem! Almost all--if not, all--MMOs right now are dumbed-down systematically and content-wise. This is the reason I could not play almost all MMOs we have today! -- I hate how dumbed-down they are and how broken their systems are which are all similar to each other.

    Is A:IR any different to those MMOs that I just described? No, it's the same and therefore there is nothing unique about A:IR! The genre is sinking to the ground to the point that it has already reached hell and A:IR is not gonna change the state of the genre! A:IR is not different to those already-available modern MMOs we have on this saturated market and therefore it has nothing new to offer me that the market doesn't already have!

    When you plan to bring a product to the market, you have to look at the demand of the market for your type of product which can be affected by supply! Simple logic! -- I and the already-saturated MMORPG market have no demand for a game like A:IR when the market is already full of the same kind!

    You see, mindset varies between different playstyle groups! As we are not in the same group, my mindset is different! I don't look at costs when it comes to evaluating a game if I will play it or not. A terrible MMORPG can be free and I will still not think of playing it as I also value my time. I don't invest my time on a game that I already know will be a waste of my time from the very start! MMORPG--as it is--is a perpetual online game that has long-term service---to us fans of this genre, it is an investment of time if one will play the same game for long-term! A game can be free but it definitely carries an expense of time!

    MMOs are competing for players' time initially, and players' money secondary.

    I evaluate an MMORPG based on quality of the game, quality of service, and sustainability of both for long-term. I don't look at anything else but those! If your evaluation is based on money, then you don't know how to value your time and you don't know how to pick the right game--one that suits you! Is that a basis of the price or a basis of the overall characteristics of the game? It is nothing but the later! It is only you people who are bringing price into this equation! If you are too poor or too cheap to afford to play an MMO as an activity, how much you are willing to spend defines the options of all you can ever play. Majority cheapstakes is the reason Pay-to-Play died and have been replaced by Free-to-Play in this era. This is the reason these MMOs need whales to survive, You people just don't wanna pay for anything!

    It's a personal perception! If one is smarter than that, they will have a different perception from a wider picture. A car and a computer are also tangible, but do they last forever? Why do you need them in the first place? "Utility" which makes them just "tools"! Do you occupy yourself with tools or you occupy yourself with the purpose that the tool is supposed to be used on?

    Owning a game that is free or paid, what the f*ck is the difference? They are the same thing as they do the same thing functionally! Most people think that if they pay for something, it obligates them to keep playing it! This is their perception of "getting their money's worth" that they don't know how to value their time! A mindset like that costs them liability! Every time they will pay for something, they will take all the liability to consume the product because of their perception even if the product turns out to be a waste of their time.

    Also, a "regular update" is based on revenue and not one-time sale of the game. MMOs have recurring operating expenses -- will a company take that responsibility and keep taking it to keep distributing their earnings made from the sale on recurring expenses? Think and stop using your heart! Your heart beats like a fool but your brain doesn't work! To run a company like that is a downward-spiral! You want them to keep operating to continue to cover expenses for you cheapstakes and you fail to think of "revenue source"? What kind of financial experience do you have in your life or are you a kid?
     
    Last edited: Nov 13, 2019
  5. YukieNakama

    YukieNakama Ascendant

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    I was breaking down the free vs buy models. I did not list all of the games I have ever played only games that matched the models and they were MMOs that are more comparative to the one up for discussion as opposed to say Endless series which is strategy or Borderlands 3.

    I evaluate a game on the quality of the game and the quality of the service. As I stated in "what makes a f2p succeed", it is important for their to be low bug issues, community that is paid attention to, and regular updates. A game quality is really only decided after a person plays the game. The point of comparing the free vs buy models is whether someone will even give it a chance to be picked up. As I stated, the models gear towards different people picking them up.

    I have played many many games and looked at it from all walks of life. When people purchase a game it comes with the belief there will be regular updates. Free to play MMOs come and go. There are hundreds of Free to play MMOs at different stages of development every year. I have alpha and beta tested multiple games this year and at least 5 ended up being dropped. I had several I played that were released and it was immediately panned by steam and the game decided to go another way.
    Free and Paid games are very different from each other because of the mentality behind them. When a person pops into a free game, there is a large percentage of a chance that they will not stay. Paid games have smaller fluctuation in players. Having said that, I already mentioned games that are free and are successful and why they are successful. They are also the exception rather than the rule.

    "That's fine, we all have different playstyles, but when an MMO is catering to the casuals in order for them to grab the most audiences--as majority of players are casuals--designing the gameplay and the game-mechanics in a way to please them in expense of us the dedicated and the equity of gameplay system which is supposed to be competitive as what a "game" should be."


    I never said to cater to casual players. I said find a balance between them. In an MMO, there is usually about 5% that are Whales, and approximately 20% that are no lifers (as in they play the game more than 12 hours a day almost everyday). The Majority of an MMO is played by people who work, have kids, and have lives. They may spend a 3-6 hours a day play the game then leave or only play on the weekends. My husband, for example, plays League of Legends every day after he gets out of work. He will spend about 2-3 hours a day doing dailies before bed. Those players can play competitively without being on all of the time. They can rank and do well in the game without having to spend over 12 hours in a game.

    If Games only cater to the percentage of players with no life, then 1. community lacks diversity 2. people will leave the game. There are multiple games already crawling with people who are overly competitive, no lifers, and toxic. The key is a balance.

    It's a personal perception! If one is smarter than that, they will have a different perception from a wider picture. A car and a computer are also tangible, but do they last forever? Why do you need them in the first place? "Utility" which makes them just "tools"! Do you occupy yourself with tools or you occupy yourself with the purpose that the tool is supposed to be used on?

    Cars and computers are necessities in life, a game is not. People view a game based on invested time and money. Both are highly valuable and highly sought after. If someone spends money on a product, they want that product to function while they are playing it and will not bother buying said product if it does not. Would you spend money on a game knowing their was no updates and it was buggy? Of course not! People will find out right away that that is an issue based on reviews. When people get items for free they do not anticipate anything from it. When someone hands you a free item do you think that there is high value in it? course not! (not counting lotteries of course). It also means that they are not invested in it and will drop it more easily.

    Also, a "regular update" is based on revenue and not one-time sale of the game. MMOs have recurring operating expenses -- will a company take that responsibility and keep taking it to keep distributing their earnings made from the sale on recurring expenses? Think and stop using your heart! Your heart beats like a fool but your brain doesn't work! To run a company like that is a downward-spiral! You want them to keep operating to continue to cover expenses for you cheapstakes and you fail to think of "revenue source"? What kind of financial experience do you have in your life or are you a kid?

    I am not sure what you are referring to. If anything most of my post was very analytical. I analyzed what was successful and what was not for free vs paid games. I gave a very small comment on my personal preference for a game but I also stated that I play both paid and free games. The point of the post was to show what steps need to be taken to have a successful game regardless of its cost and what free games have done to ensure that. You seem to be under some sort of misapprehension that I am suggesting that this game should be paid for or that I am using my emotions.
    Paid Model receive revenue just as well as a Free model. You do not need to make an item mall completely pay to win to make a game successful in revenue. The games that I mentioned that had issues were Free games that had pay to win item mall revenue and they made a lot of money doing it. It was why the company avoided certain updates that were Eastern. They were using the business side to try to milk people for as much as they could before the update made their purchases no longer necessary. Eventually the well ran dry and before they could regain players by actually updating the game, they ended up having to close the game.
    Most buy to play MMOs have item malls that people still purchase items in. In Final Fantasy Online, people will pay a monthly fee but still buy cosmetics in the mall. The same is said for other buy to pay games.

    As for my experience, I have worked as a Game Sage on multiple free games and seen what happens when 1. a new company takes over 2. games are not getting the updates that they are supposed to receive 3. general complaints from players at all levels. This is why I have known how certain American developers who take over Asian games act. Their attitudes are never sustaining and it reaps games that have very short shelf lifes. I am referring to unintended shelf lifes not ones where people made max level and they are happy but they are waiting for content so they left the game to wait.
    A long time ago, people would jump at the chance to play a free game and would not care whether there was a p2w item mall. They would play it for 6 months or so and find that brick wall preventing this or that and they would quit. Now, there are so many of those times of games that flood the market that people have become more careful to the practice and careful to choose games that they can successfully play. If you do not believe my assessment, just look at the massive amount of games on Steam or MMO review sites that will analyze a game and in their analysis add whether the game is worth playing based on how bad the p2w aspect is.

    Good Afternoon All :)
    Yukie
     
    Last edited: Nov 13, 2019
  6. Eternal

    Eternal Ascendant

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    Let me ask you a simple question: remove that 5% whales because no one wants a Pay to Win system. Among the rest of the groups you mentioned here, who do you think should dominate the game? By logic, it's the most invested! You expect to compete and claim your place in the upper hierarchy? It will take you dedication! What kind of expectations do you have? Look at every reference and you'll see that it takes experience and work in order to make it to the upper rank, both of which requires time that one needs to invest and make the choice to invest, otherwise give up that absurd expectation!

    Here is what you want: you want an impartial(equal) system where everyone regardless of their input and dedication can easily compete against one-another because everyone can meet the requirements of being the best--as it has been lowered to the lowest--, disregarding the fact that this is a competition.

    Here is what I want: I want an equitable(fair) system that is not adjusted just to provide opportunities to the less-competent. If the less-competent cannot compete, 1.) they need to learn how to compete and do what it takes to compete to change their status, and if they can successfully do that, they can turn the wheel, or 2.) they will never learn and they will never invest in the first place and therefore they deserve to be at the bottom.

    The system that you want is abundant today including from this garbage game we call "AIR"! We have a time-gated session-system, reactive combat with no incorporation of strategy/tactics, so-called "PVP" that has no risks, an overly-simplified game with no complexity and depth, very easy PVE difficulty, very easy enhancing system, an auction economy that calculates the average price per period for you, log-in rewards, vertical progression system with no horizontal progression, fast-travel, no risk vs reward, solo-oriented, instant-gratification, etc.

    The type of games that you're looking for are very abundant so it's not hard for you to find what you're looking for!

    Who would dominate the game is base on it's system-design! You give me a bad system and it's not worth my time! I want a game that is systematically fair!

    You wanna know why I wouldn't waste my time in A:IR? It's the same catering to the casuals that almost all MMOs do nowadays! I cannot accept a system like that! Casuals demand everything including the best status and the game is handing it to them, all for the sake of sales, even if it means trashing the gameplay!

    Call it elitism, call it toxicity, call it whatever you wanna call it, the system that I want is fair! Why do you casuals demand the best status when you couldn't even expend what we can? If you think about it, such expectation is absurd!

    My rant here is about the expectations.
     
  7. Eternal

    Eternal Ascendant

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    @YukieNakama You said you've been playing MMOs for about 20 years now? I started when I was 8 years old which if I do the math, I've been playing for about 17 years now -- close to yours. We both know and experienced all along how this genre evolved, which is to me--if you would ask me--is getting progressively worse over time. Right now, almost all Developers are making their MMOs more and more accessible than ever before in expense of trashing the gameplay. Qualities that made MMOs good during it's golden age are being stripped away due to the fact that it's demanding, and look what we have now -- easily accessible MMOs but the experience is hollow.

    Trust me, it's not just the Pay to Win that is ruining MMOs today but this whole shift to ever-improving accessibility that are dumbing-down games even content-wise! Go read the development roadmap of A:IR and this is most of what I heard: commitment to improve accessibility, like it will improve the game from what it currently is. Such a pity! This is why I have zero confidence in A:IR -- it is bound to end up as another trash!
     
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2019
  8. YukieNakama

    YukieNakama Ascendant

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    Let me ask you a simple question: remove that 5% whales because no one wants a Pay to Win system. Among the rest of the groups you mentioned here, who do you think should dominate the game? By logic, it's the most invested! You expect to compete and claim your place in the upper hierarchy? It will take you dedication! What kind of expectations do you have? Look at every reference and you'll see that it takes experience and work in order to make it to the upper rank, both of which requires time that one needs to invest and make the choice to invest, otherwise give up that absurd expectation!


    A person who should dominate the game is someone who understands how the game operates and is able to utilize the system given to them and take advantage of it to make the most out of their characters. It does not mean how much time or money they dump into the game. Games I mentioned in my model are successful because as I stated before, they hold the character and by no means are simple or easy to play. The main difference is they have a community of players that do not think that they are better than everyone else because they dumped more money into the game or played it the longest. They support each other and help lower levels up into the game so they can be part of the community as well.

    Here is what you want: you want an impartial(equal) system where everyone regardless of their input and dedication can easily compete against one-another because everyone can meet the requirements of being the best--as it has been lowered to the lowest--, disregarding the fact that this is a competition.

    Here is what I want: I want an equitable(fair) system that is not adjusted just to provide opportunities to the less-competent. If the less-competent cannot compete, 1.) they need to learn how to compete and do what it takes to compete to change their status, and if they can successfully do that, they can turn the wheel, or 2.) they will never learn and they will never invest in the first place and therefore they deserve to be at the bottom.



    I said that I wanted balance between them. The majority of players are not no-lifers. I said nothing about catering and I already responded to this question before. Any of my previous examples of successful games should show that I never stated that equality in a game means easy game play. I do not have any games listed that are easy to manage and just means you have to be present to be successful. There seems to be an automatic assumption that anyone who has a life is therefore unable to be competitive and unable to comprehend the difficulties of the game which is simply not true. The majority of competitive players are people who do have lifes but they balance them and they choose what game they want to play based on the quality of that game and they will not join a game that does not draw them in. If they pop into a game and immediately see people able to dump lots of money into the game and just be high level and fully decked out, they will not bother to play. They will move on to better games with more balance and complexity.

    The type of games that you're looking for are very abundant so it's not hard for you to find what you're looking for!


    The system I am looking for is not abundant, otherwise I would have added more on my f2p successful list

    Who would dominate the game is base on it's system-design! You give me a bad system and it's not worth my time! I want a game that is systematically fair!



    What you want is a game that only caters to persons who play all the time. These are players that can play the game for over 12 hours a day. You come under a constant assumption that in game rewards, log ins, and events are somehow beneath you and degrade the game. What they do is draw players into the game. They may not draw in players that are at the top but they are players that are drawn in to enjoy the game and learn how to play it. They are also players who come into the game because the event is there. They are players who already have high levels but don’t want to miss the opportunity to catch that event. Those activities keep the game updated and alive and have no bearing on who is at the top or most competitive. There are no events in any game, even free to play, where the rewards are enough to slide players into the top.



    Call it elitism, call it toxicity, call it whatever you wanna call it, the system that I want is fair! Why do you casuals demand the best status when you couldn't even expend what we can? If you think about it, such expectation is absurd!



    1. I have never met a casual who worried about being on the top of any game. That is why they are termed casual

    2. A player who plays for 3-6 hours can be competitive without having no life. These are the key people who determine whether a game will maintain its longevity not no-lifers, not whales, and no casual players. All the others will pop into a game max out in a few months then drop the game because they are bored or it doesn’t have what they are looking for and until an update will not come back (for casuals they are more likely to drop a game and move onto the next new up and coming game as they are not heavily invested). Those players who play 3-6 hours a day are the daily players who will keep coming because they space the game without getting there before updates are available. They also will put money into a game if they enjoy it and it will be consistent rather than a simple large dump of money like a whale. They keep the game running month to month because if a game is good they will be there.

    3. I call toxicity on anyone who decides to generate negative activity simply because the person is not them. There are many people in this world at all different levels and interests in games and they should be capable of playing a game competitively without feeling like they have to be on all the time. There are plenty of environments where people who had no-life took over the environment and it is seeping with such negativity that it has a bad reputation and is often avoided. That type of environment does not generate new players that want to play it creates a cesspool of people who say derogatory things to new and learning players.

    4. Games that required constant grinding and taking 20 hours a day to move 2% (Silkroad beta anyone) are not successful anymore and certainly not in the US. People who have to survive in the US without assistance have to work at least 40 hours a week and often average 60 to survive. They also want to enjoy gaming in that. Most companies understand that the people who can afford to pay for things have to have jobs to pay for them. That is why it is key to find balance between all groups because it will be the people who have jobs and money who will be paying for the game and the item mall not the person who does not have a life.




    @YukieNakama You said you've been playing MMOs for about 20 years now? I started when I was 8 years old which if I do the math, I've been playing for about 17 years now -- close to yours. We both know and experienced all along how this genre evolved, which is to me--if you would ask me--is getting progressively worse over time. Right now, almost all Developers are making their MMOs more and more accessible than ever before in expense of trashing the gameplay. Qualities that made MMOs good during it's golden age are being stripped away due to the fact that it's demanding, and look what we have now -- easily accessible MMOs but the experience is hollow.


    When I first started playing MMOs games were no life and filled with bots, spammers, and overly slanted items malls. MMOs were a new concept and most of the games were coming directly from the East. Every game did not cater to anyone but whales and no-lifers. The games would die or transform into a sequel.

    After years of working on a character, it would suddenly no longer be relevant and no way to change it . Updates were held to generate more money from the item mall (Ex Silkroad before the 3 kingdoms and Europe only had one Kingdom. There were three elements and a healing group. People played Ice and Heal to help out the environment, but after 3 years, Silkroad opened their updates and made rings that made you invulnerable to freezing which made Ice no longer viable and there were no change scrolls for builds).

    The best MMOs were the paid ones. Wow had come out after SIlkroad (beta was in 2003-2004) and was seen as a great games for people to enter into as it had a realistic item mall but it was pay to play. WoW free servers started popping up to cater to those who could not pay monthly and wanted a certain version.
    Everquest -1999
    RuneScape - 2001
    Ryzom - 2004

    Free Games
    Terra - 1996
    Ultima Online - 1997
    Lineage - 1998
    Asheron's Call - 1999
    Anarchy Online - 2001

    My experience had few game options and you did not have reviews to read like you do today. I do not see degradation in the environment I see that there is a flood of games available and only a handful are identified or noticed. For a player who wants to play MMOs and is seeking something new they have to either be on the ground floor up (alpha/beta tester) or do real digging. These flooded games carry a wide variety of gameplay. Casual players are drawn to mobile and browser games, competitive and whale players are drawn to games like MOBAs (League of Legends, Dota..etc), and middle players are having a hard time finding the right place. These are the players that make or break traditional MMOs non MOBAs.
    Note: MUDs and Browser based MMOs have been around since before WOW, Everquest, and Terra were on the scene due to the internet speed capabilities of traditional homes where dialup was common in 1990s.

    Reference: ( https://beauhindman.wordpress.com/2016/08/19/so-when-was-the-classic-era-of-mmorpgs/ MUDs List: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_MUDs )
    "
    • 6 launches in 1996
    • 3 in 1997
    • 13 in 2003
    • 13 in 2011
    • 13 in 2013 (the highest amount in recent years)
    • 8 in 2014
    • 8 to launch in 2016
    But also, look at closures:

    • 1 in 2002
    • 1 in 2003
    • 1 in 2004
    • 1 in 2006
    • 5 in 2009
    • 8 in 2012
    • 5 in 2016 (so far) " - giving an example of the beginning of the launching Era of MMOs compared to what it is today where there are multiple articles online discussing the hundreds of MMOs that release every year

    The flood in the market has caused a cascade of failures among MMO types. Players in the US (majority) no longer want games that take all of their lives and have become attracted to the quick in and out style games (MOBAs/Browsers/Mobile). The demographic that is still popular in Korea/Japan/China is no longer popular in the US and is why many successful Eastern MMOs have been delayed on moving to the US. One example is Moonlight Blade. Another that failed the market was Peria Chronicles.

    Those games that have maintained success in the US that have closer to traditional MMOs style are successful because they learned to balance between them. I say balance not Cater. Many of them are pay to play games and that community is more settled and tends to have a demographic of older players. The older players used to be that middle player group that helped hold the f2p games, but due to the super saturation and failures, many older players who are competitive but do not want to deal with the younger environment that free games attract are not entering these games.

    I made a list of failures for MMOs and they did not just list item mall as the reason. There is a myriad of reasons why a game fails, but the key are the players that maintain the stay in the game. It is not the whales, no-lifers, or casuals, but the player who works a 40-60 hour job and plays the game a few hours a day every day. They are the players that if they like the game will put money into it, and they are the ones that maintain the revenue for the MMO. They have left the free environment because gaming companies are not listening to the communities and keep pushing out poor game content and those who have played MMOs long enough can pop into a game and generally get a feel for whether they want to stay or they want to go back to their paid game.


    Having said all of this I have never told you my background or what type of player that I am. There have been a lot of assumptions in your responses. As this is a forum on an up and coming game, you seem quite adamant in pressing the game as crap before it is even out. As I placed information from an analytical stance to show what makes a successful game perhaps you should as well place any non-emotional concerns to detail what can be done to improve this game before it is officially launched. As in concerns directly to the developers. Maybe they will take into consideration your representation and concerns about game degradation and improve on it.
    I make these responses in hopes that you are more than a forum troll, but from what I have seen from anyone else that you have responded to, you seem consistent in being rude and antagonistic towards them. I know some of your responses were the same towards me, but I have no means of being offended. I just wish you would not do that to others as not everyone has as thick of skins as I and this forum thread was about adjusting the f2p model not discussing people's intelligence.

    Good Afternoon

    Yukie
     
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2019
  9. YukieNakama

    YukieNakama Ascendant

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    oh and fyi what is distinctly different about successful games? They are not Eastern games translated.
    f2p
    1. Warframe - Digital Extremes - Canada
    2. Path of Exile - Grinding Games - New Zealand
    3. Secret World Legends - Funcom - Norway
    4. Burning Soulworker - Private US server after the translation and Korean to US company ruined the game

    b2p
    1. ESO - Bethesda Softworks - Rockville Maryland
    2. WOW - Blizzard Entertainment - Irvine California

    Exception is b2p Final Fantasy as it is a japanese company translating to english (but it is not korean or chinese)
     
  10. Lointaine

    Lointaine Ascendant

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    >>oh and fyi what is distinctly different about successful games? They are not Eastern games translated.
    I'm not quite sure about exact numbers, but isn't Black Desert successful? And I believe that TERA was quite succesful too for like year or two after f2p transition until updates/localizator politics started to ruin it heavily.

    IMO, b2p/p2p is overrated. It's basically as good as the company is ready to be moderate in f2p elements of it - but basically we have the same requirements for f2p system.
    Personally I don't have any troubles with b2p/p2p, but for some of my friends it may be a problem to try/support another game if it requires to pay just to play it. And I won't really play it alone, too. For the same reason I won't play the game that's 100% unplayable without some p2w-kind transactions. At the other hand, I may be QUITE a whale when it comes to cosmetics.

    As an example, FF Online. Personally I've found it 90% dull and uninteresting. I'd just drop f2p game of this kind after 2 hours of trying without paying a cent. Of course, I've found nothing pretty in it being b2p. It wouldn't be any better just by being f2p, but at least it would feel much more honest (and I'm pretty sure it makes quite a money on microtransactions anyway).

    P.S. The first mmorpg I've played was private server of Ragnarok Online (for 7 years until renewal patch finally broke it for me). And it was obviously f2p (with 1x rates and 'as close as possible to korea' politics). But it was good f2p with only transaction allowed being 5$/month premium subscription with no direct ingame bonuses like exp boosts or items (there also was next to zero bots, and this fact definitely made RO shine like it didn't on most official servers - I know, I tried). Basically right after that I was young and completely oblivious to how bad f2p may actually get.
    But is p2p an universal answer? Nowadays, definitely no. Nowadays p2p is the same f2p, but you also need to pay for the air itself. From my experience, people nostalgia for p2p often comes from old times when companies worked a bit differently than now.
     
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2019
  11. YukieNakama

    YukieNakama Ascendant

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    BDO is a b2p game that was previously f2p that is still undergoing hard reviews who remember what the game was like in the East and it turned.
    TERRA is known as a Freemium where it is free then buy. The game started out well in 2012 but En Masse is diabolically known for its p2w market style. This is why Closers has been a huge tank (Soulworker with the same style is much butter on a private server burning), and why Kritika ended up being closed early. I alpha and beta tested Kritika and it was fine until they released it and had a severe p2w mall. I played Closers from beta to release and tested out characters. Closers is more noticeable as you hit cap on the first character.

    FF Online is more interesting as you play with other people. It is not a solo game. It is not fun soloing. The game really only gains interest after level 30. The game highly focuses on the story but the early storyline is not that interesting. I think they assume that since you pay monthly that you will take the time to ride the uphill battle. I found WOW and ESO to be worth better money than FF Online. ESO has more soloing capabilities. You can explore the world and decided which countries you want to go to. If that storyline doesnt draw you in, you can go to a different area. FF Online is too linear.

    I prefer playing with other people and there are few games that I do not mind going off on my own. ESO, Path of Exile, and Secret World Legends were the few that didnt really require a group and soloing was low key. Warframe can be solo but I also like discussing builds with people. Most of my friends I hang out with tend to jump from game to game. I like to stick to a game for longer periods, but recent games have been more difficult to mainstay the game. I had hoped that Revelation Online would be this way, but as soon as you start hitting cap it became really hard to play. Now if you know a few dozen gamers that all can play together and work together then it is a lot of fun and rarely requires the item mall. If you are a loner and dont know a lot of people then you are completely screwed in that game.

    I have a variety of games and a long list but I only listed ones here that were relatable to this game. I have found some pretty neat free games and even fun cheaper b2p games but it has become harder to find games that are successful in the same category as AIR
     
  12. Lointaine

    Lointaine Ascendant

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    I do still play FF a bit (around 90 hours ingame by now xD) when my friend has the money to pay the subscription :) He really likes it just for the visual style, I don't really get it though. But I basically can play anything together with him as long as it doesn't involve pvp. But I'd like to at least buy more costumes to have some costume fun... they just don't really sell most of them (instead they directly sell money, level and quest progressions =.='').
    I didn't really like ESO too. Got it by discount, and I think it was WAY overpriced initially given the quality. I think it's kinda viable as MMO for hardcore TES fans, probably, to get some lore expansion and such. But IMO it would look much better and more honest as f2p. Still I've got some costumes while trying it. I really appreciated costumes/pets/... as-account-wide-achievments style; the only other game I play that doesn't heavily character-lock things is Tree of Savior.

    Personally I'm more of sandbox person. I know it isn't too popular opinion, but I usually feel like that I'd better read stories in books and maybe single games. For MMORPG's I prefer less streamlined style of having relatively tiny (and unnecessary for progression) questlines forming the image of the world, rather than telling me the another story of another chosen one among 1 million of other chosen ones. You may say that I'd usually prefer local quests over main storyline at the very least, but meaningful local quest, not just a bunch of 'whatever fauna is bothering me, go kill N of said fauna, thanks'.

    I also greatly appreciate when the game at least allows to do its quests together with friends without using unavoidable single instances here and there.

    In 3d games I also really appreciate non-target systems, even though I do think that auto-targets and probably even sometimes well-realized tab-targets (I've yet to see one) may be okay, too. Basically early TERA was the best for me in that regard (focusing a bit less on flashy click-space-for-the-next-skill combos and more on tactics and positioning).
     
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2019
  13. YukieNakama

    YukieNakama Ascendant

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    I have played sandbox style like Minecraft, factorio, feed the beast (Minecraft on crack), and Second Life. I am currently watching a few MMOs that are coming out that are rather unique including Book of Travels, Chronicles of Elyria, Pathfinder Online, Oath, TemTem, SamuTale, and Ashes of Creation. There are some games with potential but they do not look like they will be available for a year or two.

    ESO is best to be purchased when there is a special and when the expansion is included. Morrowind added a lot to ESO as did the new Dragon Expansion. The game is wide and since it is more open, you can end up bored with the game because it doesnt drag you by the collar like other MMOs. Also like Path of Exile, it is a game that people tend to like or dislike with little middle. What I can say for it is it has a great character creation that once you have made a character past 115, you start receiving points and those points accumulate towards all characters so once you get a second character past that stage it will immediately level to the higher level you have.
    Path of Exile is unique because the skill points are open and your skills are based on the gems you put on your gear so they are not character locked.

    My interest in games depends on the mood. I have survival games like 7 days to die. I play strategy games like Endless series and Game of Thrones. 2d world I like terraria and secrets of grindea. I sometimes play puzzle games when I am looking for something light and random to do. I have weird fun games like my name is pedro. MMOs tend to be in the forefront, but recently I havent found anything to latch onto. I am currently playing Borderlands 3 and have almost all 4 characters at level 50.
    I played Final Fantasy online for a few months because I was waiting for ESO's new expansion to come out. I have to say that while I found most of the content a bit boring and a bit grindy, the community is a little pompous but generally nice. It was one of the few MMOs that I have went to where players would randomly come up to me and hand me things and players would go out of their way to make sure I had a group with me for group activities. The negative is that it can get boring very quickly if you dont have a group or community and the housing is horribly obscene. The prices for the housing market is next to impossible to achieve without floods of money. There is a nice entertainment area with races, learning to fight pets against each other, and random mini games to play. I know a few people that will just go into their and play and gamble without pushing the story.

    I am currently playing a side game (low graphics) called Savage Hunt where you hunt and tame dragons. It reminds me of early WOW classic and no sign of auto targetting and skills can be turned into combos.
    Another non-auto attack that I have seen is Chronicles of Spellborn and the original Dungeons and Dragons Online game.

    There is a list called free action combat games that tend to not have auto attacking/tabbing. https://www.freemmogamer.com/download/action-combat-mmorpg/ I dont know if you would find any of them interesting or if you have already played them. Most of the ones I see listed have fighting styles that have combination style attack rather than single click. I do not suggest Realm of the Mad God, Some of the others have more p2w but that game is really crappy.
     
  14. Lointaine

    Lointaine Ascendant

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    Currently I'm playing Lost Ark with said friend. While it isn't a gem of all times for me, diablo style always has the chance to have my attention and to give me a bit of fun. I've also already bought the only cosmetic available for now xD The same was for the PoE, it's actually not bad at all (even though I didn't really considered it as MMORPG).
    Payment model wise, currently I'm on BDO and Tree of Savior (both are around 3k hours of gameplay). I do feel some relatively minor p2w requirements for the first one (inventory+pets), but I find it bearable; I may presume that it's different for those who strive for some over-competivity, but it isn't ever like that for me, so I just won't pay for gameplay-related boosts. ToS pretty much doesn't even have things like inventory expansions; and it's also really kind to me in the sense that most equipment and cosmetics are not bound to character (or even account) after being used: you can buy costume, wear it for a while and then sell it, no problem. I really like this approach, quite unpopular nowadays.
    Well, you can say that in exchange cosmetics are quite expensive in ToS for its simplistic relative low-poly style (at the other hand, I've bought a lot for ingame silver).

    Company interests wise, I'd say that I've paid for both much more than I'd ever pay for just monthly subscription itself. So, for me it's like: give me the game I want to play, and I definitely WILL reward it (I think I've spent around 100$ for cosmetics even on ESO, even though I've played it no more than FFO). Asking me to pay in advance... well, there's a high chance that I will still pay to try the A:IR anyway <.< But I won't like the decision :)

    P.S. Personally I don't have a problem with 'grindy' content. Of course, if the game is boring gameplay-wise, it's a problem. There's also a deeper (and sadly very common) problem of not allowing players to get some actual rewards until they reach some kind of 'endgame' state. If both problems are adressed correctly, then being grindy is not a problem, it's a heart and soul of the game.
     
    Last edited: Nov 16, 2019
  15. YukieNakama

    YukieNakama Ascendant

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    I like diablo style games like POE, but the way the items go into invantory at various sizes is the only reason why I do not play it as often. POE I think I have only spent on cosmetics, making a guild, and I bought the inventory sorting.

    I like cosmetics in games and I will pay for things in games. I think that there have only been a handful of games that I spent money and they were not cosmetics and they were browser/mobile money dump games that I immediately regretted. I have been playing MMOs for so long that I can tell the trend based on the item mall and advertisements whether a game is going to be p2w. Sometimes it will take slightly longer if I was in anticipating the game and really hoping it would succeed (Revelations Online).

    I like playing games that I have so many things to do that I do not notice my level.
    I want a game that I am so wrapped in the story, quests, or activities that levels just fly by. I cannot do traditional grinding anymore.

    I spent a long time playing games for years on end where I had to walk between two spawn points and kill a random object so I could increase my experience by 2% after a month of grinding 16 hours a day. Every game that I have played that format and it always ended in tears. I ranked in top 5 in games like that only for the company to flop, close, or close and make a sequel.

    My top needs in a game
    1. Quests: are they linear, complex, boring? Is it the traditional "go there and kill X mobs" or is it detailed complex quests that pulls the story. Preferrably quests that do not make you kill more than 50 mobs. Best Questing system is Secret World Legends although ESO I like for its non linear pathways. Morrowind storyline is awesome.
    2. Skills/Stats is it a complex system? Linear Skills or are there different builds? Is it a classless system or set?Are the skills button mashing or combos? I like complex systems with various builds and wider skills. I will play a strict system but I prefer variety because it allows for debates and conversation. My favorite system so far is Path of Exile.
    3.What else do they have besides Quests? Is it just arenas or pvp so high levels just beat eachother up? Is there variety when you do not feel like questing? Final Fantasy has the best side games. It is sometimes better than any other game system. ESO is nice because of the open like world searching for shards, picking for the crafting, and opening chests. I like having mini areas to do fun things that may contribute to your character but isnt just farming for your max level set. Revelation Online also had a few good side mini games.
    4. Community Quality and updates - When I look over a game for the first time, I check out reviews and look over their forums. I want something that shows a community for help with guides. I would like to see constructive criticism and the developers responding and trying to update.
    5. Graphics Quality/Item mall with customization or game customization. I enjoy changing up what I look like in the game and the graphics quality based on the genre. I dont mind 2d world but my 3d world has a mid game feel (I dont need super graphics but I draw the line at crappy looking people in skimpy armor and big boobs)
    I have a subscription for ESO. My collection is mainly outfits and housing
    I havent had subscription on FF online in the last couple of months.
    I have not played Wow on the main server in years, but I have played various private servers
    I am lately playing straight up buy games but it is just because of the season. I have not found any current f2p game that has been released in the last year or two.
     
  16. Eternal

    Eternal Ascendant

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    My needs for an MMO:
    1.) No limitations on the Trading and the economy should be 100% player-driven with no Tax system and with all Items being tradeable. Must have direct Player-to-Player Trading.
    2.) No Session-based mechanics at all, no Attendance Login-Rewards, and no Event-based activities but only on relevant occasions like Christmas, Halloween, etc. If the game is gonna have something like a recovery mechanics (for SP, for fatigue, etc.), it must be resource-based as well, otherwise it turns into another Session-mechanics.
    3.) Everything and all activities take place in a single Open World. I have no tolerance for Private Instances in an MMO!
    4.) Must have Horizontal progression, not just Vertical. Also, Progression must not be linear and must allow for Theorycrafting based on situations. The game must be Sandbox and not Themepark.
    5.) Must have Risk vs Reward, and if we are talking about PVP, it must have this! I don't like PVP that caters to the carebears! Also, I don't believe in progression, I believe in dynamics. If the game is all growth and it has no loss, the game just don't have any risks! --this is why I prefer mechanics like loss of %EXP on death, Equipments can be destroyed on upgrade failure at a certain point with no Protection mechanics (like in Ragnarok Online and like the scrolling system in Maplestory with no Prots), etc.
    6.) Must have sufficient contents.
    7.) Must be Group-oriented and social.
    8.) Must have Combat that is not rythmic and limited. Must have no animation-lock when using Skills. Must have strategy/tactics incorporated in to the dynamic combat. The combat that I described is not a WoW-cloned Combat System that almost all MMOs copy.
    9.) Must not have catch-up mechanics that dumbs down the game and devalues your investment. I don't like to play an Event-driven game that when the next update hits, everything you worked for are valueless like in WoW. Remember that stocks have market/economic value and I don't wanna invest my time on a game that doesn't treat stocks that way. The same goes for all my efforts that I sank into the game -- I don't want them devalued to nothing! What is the point of me putting all these time if it's meant for nothing? MMOs are seamless and not Event-driven!
    10.) Must not be Pay to Win. My definition of Pay to Win also includes Pay for Convenience, Pay to Progress, Pay to Progress faster, and having a direct in-game Currency to Cash Shop Currency Exchange System facilitated by the game.
    11.) Must have complexity and difficulty that requires use of intellect. The game must be competitive and challenging.
    12.) Game must not begin in the end-game but ends in the end-game. I don't like games that are instant-gratification!
    13.) I don't mind grinding, I don't mind RNG.

    I want to consolidate all my time into 1 MMO -- I don't play multiple MMOs and I don't like to game-hop.

    Which upcoming MMO is the best contender for me?
    Dual Universe -- the only Single-shard MMO in existence aside from EVE. Sandbox PVP and Civilization-building MMO. Sophisticated and mature community. A developer that has game-design principles that suit it's specific audience (this is how Eve Online is successful for such a long-term). An MMO that is group-oriented, complex, extensive (to allow for more freedom of customization), and difficult. This game when it is released will be the new successor to Eve.
     
    Last edited: Nov 17, 2019
  17. YukieNakama

    YukieNakama Ascendant

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    What past games meet all of these expectations?
    I was a one game person and for the most part I still am. I just do not currently have any game that takes up all of my time. I play a strategy game that I keep up with daily and Borderlands 3.
    The only game I see that comes to mind when you make this list if Warframe. All that you listed is included in warframe, but it is a game that you have to experience rather than hear it from someone else. Warframe can be played for years without diving into all of the aspects of the game because it is not heavily quest driven. There is a wonderful story line but not everyone bothers with the story.. There are people that only seek out certain warframes and do not care about the tennos. If that is true then they will gear up and loadout without touching most of the game. On the other hand, the game also has ratings on their weapons that are player and dev combination driven. If a weapon is rated as disliked by players devs will place certain markers on it and give it bonuses to balance. This constantly changes so what weapon was once awesome a month ago may not be the next month.
     
  18. Eternal

    Eternal Ascendant

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    Dailies are repetitive chores (routines) that Session-based games incentivize you to do. It forces you to login everyday and do them without giving you freedom to choose the activities that you want to do. Furthermore, if you miss them, it's not something you can recover from without Paying to Progress faster (Paying to Win).
    I'm sure you are very familiar with this system from Revelation Online--a game where everything is based on Session. It doesn't work man! I already tried it so many times like in Revelation Online where the system just doesn't work!

    Correct! The hardcores do not care about story, they only care about gameplay! I know that an MMO with good story is a requirement to some people, but not to the hardcores! To us, it is really a waste of resources and we will never prefer a game that is story-driven like Final Fantasy XIII for an RPG. "Lore" and "story" are different. An MMO with good lore can bring better immersive experience. That's important to us, but not "story" because it is linear.

    The upcoming Crimson Desert has heavy emphasis on story-telling through mercenaries and single-player campaigns like we hardcores give a damn! We don't and it doesn't impress me to hear that that game is being designed like that! It will impact the gameplay for the worse!

    "Crimson Desert is being developed so that multiple content like single play missions and MMORPG’s community can coexist."
    How can single-player and MMO coexist together in an MMO? Have Pearl Abyss gone mad or what? I can already see that this doesn't work! The game has potential but too bad they are screwing it up with bad game-design decisions!

    Some like Ragnarok Online pre-Renewal when it was Pay to Play. Right now, none, but I can choose what is the closest and meet my priorities among all these requirements. Player-driven and non-centralized economy is among the highest priority to me along with no catch-up mechanics and non-Event-driven. To me, these are the hardest to put up with.

    You see, we both prefer strategic/tactical elements but sadly all MMOs right now are purely reactive to cater to the majority. Purely reactive is purely an action game. We look for RPG elements.
     
    Last edited: Nov 18, 2019
  19. YukieNakama

    YukieNakama Ascendant

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    My Strategy game does not end when I log out. If I do not regularly check it, then I lose items. It has nothing to do with dailies. All I said is that I checked it daily not that they were quests or incentives besides keeping my armies from being killed. I know that we may have different ideas on what games and style we enjoy playing but that was a bit of a leap.

    As I mentioned before I played Revelation Online and stopped playing it. I did not stop because of the dailies but because of the gaming mechanics and the p2w item mall.

    Actually the storlyine in Warframe helps you understand how to play the Tenno. Going through the storyline helps build on how the tenno operates and helps you to understand how powerful the tennos are over the warframe in many cases. Tennos are also very important when you work in the open worlds and manage bosses.

    Story is a story, you can like or not like it. It immerses people into the game and a game without a story will end up with the same repetitive drivel as any other MMO. You level, you get gear, you max, you farm for stuff. The farming gives you the ability to craft, have top gear, and then sit in pvp and say how cool you are. It is the story that is important when done well. Story does not make a game linear. Game mechanics and quest locking by adding a story makes it linear.
    The storyline in Warframe does not prevent players from moving forward in the game as story for the Warframe and Tenno tales are often interweave throughout updates overtime. That being said there are parts that need unlocking by entering into story arcs, but I know people that never even knew that they were available and played the game for years without touching them.

    I can understand your need to have player driven and non-centralized economy as hard as it may be to find (only one I have really found is warframe and path of exile has zero economy) but your hatred of events I do not understand. It is not like anyone is forcing your hand to participate in an event and as it is an entire world that has been created by developers holidays are a part of community togetherness.

    For example, ESO has festivals during certain times of the year. One of the festivals, you get to experience the different cultures of ESO and learn how they celebrate. I mean you could easily go into a game, never touch the events and go about your business. You seem to be under some misinformation that people getting dailies are somehow getting some leverage on you who doesnt do them.

    That is like going to the grocery store and getting angry for someone having coupons they save on the same items you bought but you dont believe in coupons.
     
  20. Eternal

    Eternal Ascendant

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    It wasn't so bad until they released that Crusader Scrolls where you can get up to Mark Vs that you can even fuse together to form higher-tier Marks. So Pay to Win! Most people quit when that Crusader Scrolls came out.

    I quit the game when I get to the end-game and it became almost impossible for me to close my week. It was already hard and My.com is adding monthlies. So basically it's the Session-mechanics that killed it for me.

    I made an exception to relevant occasions like Christmas, Halloween, etc., but have you tried playing a Nexon game before? Every game they have is so Event-driven that it removes the seamlessness out of the game. They are forced activities in a Nexon game because the incentives are so high. This is the reason I refuse to touch a Nexon game, I know this Publisher and their games very well. I don't like a very Event-driven game because it is the same as Sessions, it just removes the seamlessness out of the game. Hardcores prefer a seamless MMO, I mean just look at Pantheon! We really don't like Event-driven and Session-based MMOs, it's just preference of the hardcores. With these mechanics, you cannot have a seamless MMO, it's either one or the other. "Seamless" means no Session-mechanics and only have relevant occasional events for example in Old School Runescape.

    Ask a hardcore--I have a community of them in my Discord--, they just don't like Session-mechanics.

    This is why I'm more of a PVP player than PVE. Even Ragnarok Online doesn't work without the PVP as the end-game. You've played Revelation Online -- same thing, it's about the PVP Events like Clan Wars as well competing for rankings. On a PvPvE MMO, PVP is the end-game. PVP is about competing for status and defending that status in a game that is dynamic -- that's just what it is by nature. So what if you are in the losing end? You always have the chance to turn the wheel around in a dynamic game if you are willing to compete! I know not much people who play MMOs are the PVP type, but that's how PVP works! It is a competitive thing like Rust, Eve Online, etc. In these games that I mentioned, you can lose everything. PVP players do not think about progressive gameplay (that kind of mindset is so PVE), they think about dynamic gameplay as this is all about status. You lose everything in these PVP games and you start over again to reclaim the top. It's a never ending war for dominance! PVP players are addicted to PVP games because they like the competition.

    You see, when I first heard about A:IR, they said it's going to be a PVP-centric game where 2 factions are locked in a never ending war for territories (that's why they called it "Infinite Realms" as they said in an interview). Look what they did now: they changed the concept and turned it to a PVE-centric game to cater to the majority! If A:IR is really meant for a PvPvE game with PVP as the end-game, it better have a good PVP but based on what I tried and saw, it doesn't at all!

    I'm a PVP player by most -- you can already tell by the type of games that I play such as Eve. I used to play PVE when I was young, but after moving to PVP, I can't enjoy it that much anymore as I realized that you are just playing against the environment.
     
    Last edited: Nov 19, 2019

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