Please launch as buy to Play

Discussion in 'Gameplay Discussions' started by Potato9000, Aug 5, 2019.

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  1. Shion

    Shion Ascendant

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    Players will often see B2P as a cash grab, especially when it's already F2P in Thailand.
    Once you pull a trick like that, you will lose the trust of the player base, like it was with BDO.

    I think F2P is the best option.Because it will give a bigger player base at the start, and will constantly supply game with new players through out it's existence.

    Also F2P is Bad-review proof, since you can download your self and try it out. While B2P will heavily depends on game reviews for it's future player base, it's a big risk to take.


    As for the game financial success and survival, it depends whether they will copy Archeage or BDO model for West release. From what i have seen in Thailand few month ago, they were going with BDO model, but not sure how much it changed since then.
     
  2. Insanity

    Insanity Ascendant

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    I dont think either F2P or B2P is Bad-review proof at all, if a game has mixed or bad reviews and is F2P you not going to waste your precious time downloading >20gig just to uninstall it 20 minutes into the game.

    Also wouldnt go as far as saying different models for different regions appear as a cash grab, but appears more likely that the game devs actually take various things into consideration, the western market for example doesnt like p2w aspects, where as the asian market is more open in that regard, so you could make the game B2P with a Premium Sub to make up for not selling various p2w items in the cash shop.

    If it would be my choice to make, from all the feedback I noticed on Thai and KR, I would take the risk and put it on B2P for the western market, cause the majority of the feedback was highly positive and going with B2P you appear to a lot more people who take this game and the hard work behind it more seriously and will work a lot closer and continue to give feedback. With B2P you also close the RoI gap earlier.

    Maybe easier to understand: It's sometimes better to have 50k people who bought your product and want it to succeed, rather than having 100k people who got it for free and dont care at all.
     
  3. Eternal

    Eternal Ascendant

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    Is that so? Maybe look at the figures and tell me again! How much on average are people willing to pay for B2P MMOs? $30 on average, $40 max.

    These only amount to $1.5M to $2M max of Net Product Sales (Revenue). You have to subtract the Cost of Sales (COGS) to calculate the Gross Profit, and from here, it's already a big negative value because f*cking $1.5M ~ $2M is insignificant for a game that already took 6 years to develop. Tell me, do you still have to calculate the entire Income Statement down to Net Profit to know that you are losing a lot of money? Yes, you have to, to know how big is your loss!

    After obtaining the Gross Profit, you have to subtract all the Operating Expenses to get Operating Profit, and then subtract all other income expenses (except Taxes) to get the Pretax Income, and finally subtract the Taxes to determine your Net Income. To know your Net Profit Percentage (which is what the Investors look at), just divide the Net Income by the Revenue and multiply it by 100 to get the percentage.

    That is how you calculate Income Statements, not your assumptions.

    You see, if this Revenue is not enough—and it's far from enough—, you need other revenue source/s to increase this total. This is why B2P needs micro-transactions as well to boost their Revenue so in the end, they can make reasonable Net Profit and cover the recurring Operating Costs of running an MMO as a service that requires a Server and not P2P (Peer-to-Peer). Tell me, are vanity items and premium sub (which only the hardcores pay for) in the cash shop with a playerbase of 50K enough? Ofcourse not! And if it's not, do expect to see something that affects gameplay!

    Even for us consumers, F2P is better for a game with this kind of quality for the reason of a larger population. Do you think the company will trade 100K potential customers (meaning they have the potential to spend on a cash shop that has no limit) which translates to higher recurring revenue for 50K one just for $1.5M ~ $2M of sales revenue that they can earn now (which is one-off and not recurring)? Do you think we will get a contrastingly less aggressive cash shop compare to F2P if we give them $1.5M ~ $2M of sales revenue now (which is one-off) and they could have made much more money from F2P from having a larger potential customers due to having no box-price?

    You are smoking crack instead of looking at the figures! Everything you said are wishful-thinking but you fail to see the reality. If B2P makes less, does it makes sense that the cash shop will likely be less P2W? Do you think your $1.5M ~ $2M will do anything to offset the cash shop on a cash shop that makes less due to lower population?

    That is exactly how it works and that is his impression. If the company has bad reputation—and reputation do matter in the sustainability of a business—they will less likely be able to acquire customers (and even partners). I'm not saying they can't rebuild their reputation, I'm saying that they have a bad reputation now and since ever which ofcourse will always leave a bad impression of them which will affect their ability to do business. Him and I have no trust in these companies and it's justifiable as these companies never gave a damn about their reputation. Now tell me, are you saying that they deserve long-term sustainability and a healthy customer base for having terrible reputation that they never care about? Reputation matters and maybe you are the one who needs to get experience!

    This is coming from you, and tell me, do you look at the quality of the game and what it offers before you consider paying for it or financially committing to it? Tell me about the quality of A:IR which is developed with sales-oriented marketing and not quality-oriented! Perhaps you know nothing about marketing that you don't see any difference in these! I did played the Beta and so I am aware of the quality of this game. Couple this up with their bad reputation and I have no trust in this product. In this instance, it will be a miracle if the game can turn itself around! You are hoping that a game that is built to be sales-oriented will somehow end up as a quality-oriented game? These are the things you never considered and yet you are talking about considering them before committing to a purchase?
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 10, 2019
  4. Insanity

    Insanity Ascendant

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    The First Sale might probably include Tier Package from 40€ up to 120€, and a lot of people like to go for packages that have the highest value per money, which in most cases is the "inbetween" Package so roughly 70€.

    I mean from all your Posts, I dont assume you even want to play this game at all, you have trust issues, you basicly saying its garbage quality.
    So why dont you go ahead and search something thats up to your quality standards, has a dev Team and Publisher that you trust with a good reputation, is also F2P, because for you as consumer its better to be with retards who voice their opinion and shape the game in a bad way, enjoy your crying about OWPvP cause F2P Users dont wanna be ganked while questing, enjoy having a bunch of retards thats gonna massivly flood reddit with memes once something goes wrong in a patch and its not being fixed in a like 5s, enjoy having massive anmounts of bots, gold seller spam in global chats, people or even complete guilds who will exploit their way up on the leaderboards. If you find a game dont forget to let us know, to my knowledge the latest and greatest mmorpg release that didnt fail in a matter of 2 years or earlier is smh published by Kakao Games with the name Black Desert Online, and is btw B2P, what a coincidence.
     
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  5. Gries

    Gries Ascendant

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    Congratulations, you have over-archieved 11 out of 10 f*cking wording in a single post.
     
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  6. Ayia

    Ayia Ascendant

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    This will be my last post responding to you on this thread. Please, don't take it personally, I simply can not take that much negativity into one single comment.

    There's one big difference between you and me (and several small ones), but the main being how you simply don't have any trust in this product. You keep repeating yourself, saying you saw how Ascent: Infinite Realm performed on the Thailand Beta and that's all I ever hear coming from you. You seem to keep forgetting that what we played a couple of months ago was a test beta. Since then, we've seen several developer letters, where they specify what is currently worked on, what will change, what is expected to be seen in the future and whatnot.

    I will stand behind my point, saying that reputation is not everything. You keep talking as if this is a McDonald's food-chain organization and their reputation is everything - This is not the case here. It's a gaming company and just because they have made mistakes on one game, it doesn't mean they will do it again on the next one. There are various Team Leaders, Community Managers and generally Team Members that are responsible for a game, and just because that same company made mistakes on previous games, it doesn't necessarily mean that it'll happen again with the team they'll be putting together for Ascent: Infinite Realm. I put my trust in a product, not into a company.

    And for your second paragraph - The short answer is yes. I have considered the quality and what the game has to offer. It has an enormous amount of potential and one of the reasons for that being the huge amount of content. There are so many things I'm sure you didn't even bother to research and just conclude every post judging by your experience on the first Thailand Beta. Let's take an example here - We did not have raids there. Something that's so basic. How ever, it has been confirmed that we will have raids on the game. The same thing applies to so many other features - Dye system, ping system, guild content, improved housing/leveling/combat systems and whatnot.

    I'm sorry to say this so straight, but - You keep judging by your assumptions, not by facts. You don't know anything about the game or what it could turn into, you judge based on the past of publisher and maker. The sole fact you wrote the sentence "I played the Thailand Beta and I am aware of the quality of this game", says enough to me and anyone who bothered to follow Ascent: Infinite Realm's news, updates, developer letters and confirmed content for the future.

    As I said, this is my last response to you and my advice to you would be - If you are so unhappy with this game, how it's movement is progressing and every single post of yours will be plain and simple negativity (not even constructive criticism), just repeating yourself over and over how the game is this and that...

    Then please, do us a favor and find yourself a game worthy of your time and mighty self.
     
  7. Shion

    Shion Ascendant

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    BDO is F2P game. It's only B2P in Eu and NA, cause publisher wanted to cash grab. But every Mechanic in the game in EU and NA is the same as in F2P version.


    I like the fact that they take the development of the game more seriously than Bless did, and trying out different things.

    I just hope that this time Kakao EU, using the experience from Black Desert Online, will not try to create they own A:IR version of the game, but just copy-past Korean version.
     
    Last edited: Sep 7, 2019
  8. Celestial

    Celestial Ascendant

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    What I understand from comments is western players not get lessons from previous occasions.

    This game probably will be b2p with p2w cash shop but not much p2w like eastern versions. Then players start to think that this version is better and less p2w. Gameplay looks promising so lots of players start to play and get addicted. Each time developers gonna add more p2w elements. But it will not disturb them too much they will defend publisher and developers by keep saying they also need money nothing is free. And also it is easier for them paying real money gettin further in their progress. Things run perfectly for kakao they managed to hide their true face and have huge comminuty which will get more addicted by time.

    After enough time passes they gonna roll up the sleeves and add all kind off p2w thing in this game. After draining all playerbase, relinquish this wortless game to another publisher and find different mmo to invest. Rinse and repeat.

    Oh also someone gonna say why you here, go play another game.
     
  9. Shion

    Shion Ascendant

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    What MMO's are you thinking of that took this root?
     
  10. piyang

    piyang Ascendant

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    very nice explanation but wrong answer

    learn from bless online

    not gonna happen
     
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  11. nasim

    nasim Ascendant

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    Not sure if this game has as much potential as let's say ESO, but I agree that B2P would be ideal.
    It is still too early to tell if the final game will be like the Thai version though. First they said that Thailand would be a soft release, and that there would be no wipe, but now the whole game is being reworked. Once it hits NA/EU it will be a completely different experience.
     
  12. Eternal

    Eternal Ascendant

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    Rose-tinted glasses! Sure, even I know nothing actual about the game, but atleast if I make a probability, I consider the concrete factors. My probability is backed with concrete evidences so my interpretation has basis, while yours, you are just throwing your hopes and wishful-thinking. Tell me, what is your basis?

    http://bbs.air.game.daum.net/gaia/do/air/gm/read?articleId=30&bbsId=ACN002&pageIndex=1
    Google-Translate this source and you'll find out that what all the devs are concerned about is making this game more convenient. They strongly believe that making the game more vertical than it already is from the beta, more instant-gratification, more rewards with no risk and no difficulty of attainment, less challenging, complex and difficult, less time-consuming, and more convenient dungeon and PVP requirements, on top of a more action-oriented combat, will improve the game. The priority of the devs is to make the game more fun for the casuals while sacrificing the fundamental elements of MMORPG. This is the development direction of this game and such decisions are bull sh*t! If you want another dumbed-down MMO with no substance, this game is perfect for you; if you want a change, absolutely not with this kind of development direction!

    If you believe this game is going to improve vastly, if you even believe it will improve at all from the beta-build, do some fact-finding so your probability have basis! You are not being realistic; you are being too optimistic while your expectation is far offset from the reality!

    Take the red pill instead of living that blissful ignorance of yours!
     
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2019
  13. Eternal

    Eternal Ascendant

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    Do you actually think this game is any different than Bless and Astellia? Both are not deserving of B2P model, what makes you think this one is? On top of this, if what all the devs are concerned about is making the most money with no commitment to quality, customer-satisfaction, and building good reputation, they might as well as a greedy sales-oriented company go F2P where they will make the most money as I already explained financially.

    A:IR is another scrap MMO just like Astellia and Bless. It doesn't even meet the minimum viable quality. I will have to mention that it's made in UE3 as well -- an outdated non-modern engine that has terrible performance and is simple to use but lacks extensiveness. They will just finish it's development, release it, and make back their loss when they should have scrapped this game already -- it's not even an MVP and it's still far from it after already taking 6 years in development with a development team and budget the size of a AAA!

    Stop being gullible because you people are living in your own reality!
     
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2019
  14. nasim

    nasim Ascendant

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    If they are indeed making it less grindy, and more action oriented (that remains to be seen), then awesome!!! I care about gameplay and nothing else. The combat did need a rework, it was a weird mishmash of opposing playstyles. I get they didn't want to alienate people who couldn't play using both hands, but that really didn't pan well, targeting stuff was just bad, broken even. And I expected better from the makers of TERA.

    There is no "fundamental element" of anything. I value your opinion just as much as I do about the extension of nothingness.
    If MMOs are indeed becoming more action oriented, and less grindy, then yeah, you're completely right! They really are perfect for me. I can't stand any dumbed-down games like WoW where you spam 1 button while your character faces random directions, or like Lineage where I had a lot of fun setting several bars of equally useful skills and items, but was constrained by tab targeted crap, and on top of that had to sacrifice 24hrs of my day just to be able to do basically anything. Playing that as a kid... awesome! But it just doesn't meet my standards nowadays, and much better games have been made.

    I said that they are reworking the game.

    Do you know the stuff that was presented in Thailand and Korea? That is subjected to change. If those changes are going to be significant like moving through the 2017 and 2019 Korean betas, that I don't know. I don't have a crystal ball.

    I am not qualified to make that judgement. That is up to the devs and the publisher(s) to decide. I was simply stating that like OP, I prefer B2P as a monetization method. Why? Because that is what worked for ESO, GW2 and many other successful MMOs (that btw had rough launches?). And also because I think that WoW is cancer, and that the same goes for many F2P titles that are actually virtual jobs. But with that being said, I don't think that F2P is inherently bad, Runescape offers F2P and is successful, TERA is F2P and I called that home for a while (while it didn't suck), and so on...

    There is simply no comparing this game to Bless. You didn't even play it.

    The performance was actually alright. I'd get 50~60 frames (I think it was locked at sixty) on a 1060 while running at 1080p max settings. That's alright for a MMO. And visuals were also alright. The game just looked pretty and ran fine, you don't know what you're talking about.
     
  15. KatulatinKam

    KatulatinKam Ascendant

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    I'm all for F2P, for the only fact that I'm poor and don't like using my money to pay for my garbage, if I can't even save enough after paying rent. This post was made by poor gang
     
  16. Gries

    Gries Ascendant

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    Thanks for that reply, I am definitely going to throw my money at A:IR neverthless of what you say.
    Btw, didnt even read what you wrote here. Simply not worth.

    [​IMG]
     
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  17. Eternal

    Eternal Ascendant

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    What do you mean by "if"? "If" is a conditional statement that has to evaluate if the expression is true. If you already know that it's true, you just write the statement/s without the if.
    Like I said, "Google-translate the link".

    Tell me, what is the point of this logic below which is similar to the structure of your statement?

    if (true) {
    //statements to be executed if the expression is true
    };


    It's stupid! When you don't need anything evaluated because you already have the boolean (in our case, we already know that it's certain, meaning the development-direction of the game is certain), you do not use an "if", you just say the statement!

    If you don't wanna believe me, then believe an official source and stop using the "if" as such keyword is for validation!

    I have been learning both Unity and UE4. I have Unity 2018.4 LTS (the latest stable version) and UE 4.23 with Enterprise license which uses Unreal Studio (currently in Beta). I have 1 year of experience in Unity and I recently just started learning UE4. I also know C++, C#, and Python prior to learning these engines. These two are the most popular game engines and they are both modern game engines.

    You see, I am not stupid! Do you think I will trust the long-term of an MMORPG that I will dedicate to playing for long-term to an MMORPG that is developed and will be continuously updated in the future in UE3 (patching the game with the new compiled executable from the modified source)?

    It's not about the performance and visual-aspects now, whether it runs well or not, whether it looks good or not! It's about the long-term and whether you will trust it to UE3 which is a deprecated engine.

    Have you used Unity and UE4 before? They are far superior and modern compared to UE3! A modern engine is what this game should be using! Guess what, you can never migrate a UE3 project to UE4, you can only migrate UE4 projects to a new UE4 version. UE3 and UE4 are completely different engines! The only assets you can import to UE4 are the things you developed using 3rd-party programs such as your models and textures, etc, and you have to re-instantiate them all into the scene and re-set the values of components. it's called "importing assets that were used in a UE3 project to UE4". When people talk about porting a UE3 project to UE4, this is what they meant! They meant importing assets that can be imported and not the project as it's not possible to do that!

    It's about the technology this game is bound to! It's not modern and it cannot compete with the modern, and if it can, it requires more development effort which is not worth it! (for example, getting this game to look the way it is graphically when the same result is effortless to make in modern engines) This game is just not a good platform to be continuously developed and maintained for long-term and doing so is a waste of resources!

    It's like maintaining squadrons of F-5 operational (which is a 3rd-gen fighter jet) and paying to put them in SLEP instead of decommissioning them as they are obsolete and acquiring atleast 4th-gen replacements as they have better capabilities and compatibility with modern avionics and armanents, and are still supported platforms since 5th-gens are very hard to acquire so the only options available to other countries are the 4th-gens. You wanna know what your logic sounds like? This is your logic telling me that "the game ran fine and looked pretty"! Ofcourse you can modify an F-5, but doing so is stupid! This is what A:IR is, a modified F-5 that you are trying to modernize!
     
    Last edited: Oct 5, 2019
  18. Eternal

    Eternal Ascendant

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    What else do you think is worth it? You are willing to pay--and pay ridiculously a lot--for something that is not and is far from being worth it based on the prices that they are asking. Ofcourse, you will argue that the game will be free, but the cash shop allows you to make unlimited purchases and people end up spending ridiculous amounts just to stay viable, that's my point.

    You can say that reading my comment is not worth it, but you're telling me that to you, this game is? Well, this is your opinion and if you want to decide to spend like this without thinking about what you're buying, go ahead! It is you after all who will pay the price financially and of your ignorance, not me!
     
    Last edited: Sep 28, 2019

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