Pay To Win.... Like Black Desert Online... and Even WORSE

Discussion in 'Gameplay Discussions' started by kent jason basalan, Apr 21, 2019.

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  1. Ali_Dire

    Ali_Dire Ascendant

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    try to write shorter comments not everyone have the time to read 100lines about a Hardcore whining about a game that he THINKS is bad.


    sad fraustrated people who are sad about something will try to ruin the fun for others... this dude is clearly the lonely guy who nobody enjoys talking to cause he's so f***ing annoying and negative.
     
    Last edited: Jun 21, 2019
  2. Eternal

    Eternal Ascendant

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    @Ali_Dire I will write very short then because you are retarded who can't read.

    "Think"? A game that is bad will be regarded as bad regardless. Bless Online is an example of that, and there are still people who think differently of it. Whatever bad I say about the game, I provided facts to back those statements. Still, you will view them as subjective even though those are objective opinions.

    "Realistic" will be the correct word choice. When you assessed something, how do you interpret that assessment? By it's nature! If my view of the game is negative, then that is my judgement. If you think everything is one-sided and you should always think positively of everything, then you don't need to assess anything as all measure will evaluate one-sided anyway and there is nothing to validate.

    It's not my fault that you don't have any logic. I mean the game is in Beta right now and the Korean version is exactly like the Thai build.
     
    Last edited: Jun 22, 2019
  3. Ali_Dire

    Ali_Dire Ascendant

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    lol talks about 'logic' then calls someone who doesnt read his stupid long comments retarded xD
    nice logic so cause i dont want to read YOUR long comments for some reason your logic is that im retarded ? xD 10/10 perfect judgment

    yes this is YOUR JUDGMENT which clearly doesnt mean a **** to anyone other than yourself so stop acting like you know everything or your judgment is perfect. and no im not one of those POSITIVE ABOUT EVERYTHING PEOPLE. but i never try to force my opinion on others.
    you clearly think you are some kind of smart person analysing this game for yourself. unfortunatly no, keep anything that is in your mind to yourself , or dont, say it but dont expect others to agree with what you say :)

    btw you're trying so hard on this, you said what you think about this game , dont try to force it on us.
     
    Last edited: Jun 22, 2019
  4. Eternal

    Eternal Ascendant

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    @Ali_Dire Then feel free to surmise and not gather any information to prove your notion. At this point, you are drinking your own cool-aid, so keep drinking it as you don't seem to notice anything. I mean these things do not matter to you as you are just a Casual who is willing to play anything. Why do game-design and gameplay even matter to you? But let me tell you something, it matters to people who are supporting this genre. Without our support, this game will be nothing and it will sink to nothing.

    I am not gonna support this game and only retards like you who are dragging this genre to the ground are willing to support it. Without a dedicated playerbase, this is not gonna lasts. Feel free to gamehop to the next-big-thing like how you Casuals always do.

    YOU CAN DRINK YOUR OWN COOL-AID LIKE WE F***ING CARE, BUT DON'T EXPECT US TO DRINK ON THAT SAME GLASS.
     
  5. BecauseSCIENCE

    BecauseSCIENCE Ascendant

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    Can you calm down please. I don't necessarily disagree with what you're saying but berating and making a mockery of literally everyone else isn't helping anyone, certainly not the team who is actually working on the game. also what is so bad about Casuals? Am I an idiot for sinking some time into a game, not liking it, and moving on? There must have been dozens of games where I've done that, the only exception being Sea of Thieves, as I still stuck around to see how it would develop, and now play it regularly. Also I noticed something in your post.

    "But let me tell you something, it matters to people who are supporting this genre. Without our support, this game will be nothing and it will sink to nothing.
    I am not gonna support this game and only retards like you who are dragging this genre to the ground are willing to support it."


    So are you supporting it or not? You specifically say our, as in, our support, then it becomes "I am not going to support this game at all".
    Maybe, I'm missing something there however, I have a history for missing that kind of stuff. Anyway have a nice day.

    Because Science.
     
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  6. Eternal

    Eternal Ascendant

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    @BecauseSCIENCE It is the developer that designs their game. All the decisions that go in their development is up to them. Tell me, do you pay for something without looking at the product? They are not gonna garner any customer nor will they be able to retain them if they are gonna trash the product and focus on the sales. This marketing strategy just doesn't work in the West because of the differences in the culture, where here in the West, the consumers demand quality. It's not even a matter of differences in the culture, this genre requires quality in the gameplay and game-design because it is persistent. If you don't understand what a quality product is, why don't you look at the Space-themed MMOs and Multiplayers since you are "scientific" and tell me the differences in comparison to Modern Fantasy-themed MMOs? One focuses on the product in order to create demand for it, and one focuses on sales in order to sell their garbage product. One is even innovating in order to deliver the best product that is possible such as the Single-Shard Cluster Server Technology in Eve Online and Dual Universe that makes emergent gameplay possible, etc., while the other one is continuing to head on a downward spiral.

    This is why A:IR is dumbed-down and limited, it is trying to cater to the masses who are casuals. This is not thinking about the product, this is thinking about the sales. It is too bad that the hardcores and the dedicated like myself care about the quality and longevity of the product, so if you don't give us what we demand, we will look elsewhere such as in the Space-themed MMOs. I am not gonna support a game like this just for this developer and publisher to milk me while they ignore customer satisfaction. Do you think the casuals whom this game is catering to are enough to sustain this Free-to-Play game when they don't have any dedication and spend money only based on experience? It's not gonna survive without a dedicated playerbase and dedicated players will not even choose to spend their time in this game if it is designed like this and monetized like this.

    As a "scientific" person, you probably have more affinity with me than these people. How can you even tolerate to play a game that is so dumbed-down like A:IR especially with that kind of background? A:IR is a game that requires no intellect, it is just repetitive limited activities that you do over and over again that has no meaningful purpose other than the vertical progression of the game. It is just a meaningless grind game that has limitations. Tell me, do these interest you? Are these even the things you're looking for in an MMO? If you would ask me, this is not a game for the both of us.
     
    Last edited: Jun 24, 2019
  7. Ali_Dire

    Ali_Dire Ascendant

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    what notion exactly you are just saying game design sucks developer sucks is that how you prove YOUR notion ? your mind is so f**ked
    i notice much more than you think you do , but that doesnt make me whine about it like you do , you're much less smart than you think you are , you're just pissed
    i wouldnt be here if i were willing to play anything , right now im only playing csgo and dota2.
    they do , i like game design and gameplay of this game
    do you think you are some kind of savior ? gtfo , you think a game is trying to make money without making having good quality content ? dont pay and stop whining , its free. ( i wont pay anything to such game , i will just play it if i feel to do so but if it has good content and good devs i will try to support them )
    dont , nobody gives a sh*t
    me playing a game that i like = dragging that genre to the ground ? kys smart unretarded person.
    someone really likes calling himself hardcore and even when he doesnt he starts calling others casuals xD you dont know me mr.nobody , stop judging :))
    i never expected you to do anything , why would i even give a f**k about what you do , you are nothing to me , nobody cares what you like or what you support so stop spreading your **** about what a good game is, NOBODY. F**king. CARES. B**CH.
     
  8. Eternal

    Eternal Ascendant

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    You are right that I don't know a lot about you, but there is something that I have some idea ofyour preferences for game-design. That's enough to give me an idea what your playstyle is as players of similar playstyle share common preferences, otherwise they will not be classified together under the same group. Hardcores prefer a game that is competitive with an environment that has both risk and reward. Obviously we don't have this in A:IR because A:IR is made for people like you, a casual. If you are really a hardcore, why don't you prefer a game that is competitive then?

    I will keep this reply short as per your requirement, but how you spend your time, your mindset, and your preferences as well can tell me your frame of reference, and guess whatthis defines your playstyle.
     
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2019
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  9. CM Goodvibesguy

    CM Goodvibesguy Community Management A:IR Crew

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    I'd like to remind everyone that critical discussion are welcome, but attacks or harassment of other users are not. Please keep the conversation civil and on topic rather than at each other.
     
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  10. Kailis

    Kailis Ascendant

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    Just because someone doesn’t want to play Hardcore, and prefers playing as a casual, IT IS NOT WRONG.

    Your opinion is NOT what EVERYONE should think. You have your opinion, based on whatever you saw, and then we have our opinion. We are not robots. We think on our own.

    That said, stop it already insulting people by calling them retards, stupid, etc. If you don’t like this game and will not support it, OKAY. Leave and stop annoying in the forums of a game you have already given up on. Or, at least, don’t insult. Maybe should I add PLEASE?

    I have not played the game and thus I won’t tell you how bad or good it is. I am basing my opinion on what I’ve seen and while it does not fully satisfy what I’d like in a game, I will play when it launches in NA/EU.

    Yeah, as a casual. I have my life outside games which is MUCH MORE important than a game. And everyone should respect my choice of preferences.

    I do respect it if you’re a hardcore, committed player. But I do not respect you if you keep on going insulting, mocking and being negative. Even if it’s a forum of a game, I think we all agree it’s people who is interacting so as CM Goodvibesguy said: keep calm and be nice.
     
  11. Rainwolf

    Rainwolf Ascendant

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    haha, an already destroyed MMORPG world has happened in China. Chinese MMORPG games you will need to spend a million dollars. I don't talk ****. I had spent about $40,000 in total since 2009-2014 just to build an average power character. poor game optimization and the real pay to win.
     
  12. Eternal

    Eternal Ascendant

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    @Rainwolf Look at it this way: the difference between Free to Play and Pay to Play from a business perspective is the revenue of the former is not dictated by their ability to increase or retain their playerbase through quality. By removing barriers such as the box-price and subscription allows them to open up their game to larger customer base that has potential to spend. In this business model, you don't have to increase or retain an entire playerbase in order to increase or maintain your revenueall you have to do is keep the game "free" in order to do so, and if you can keep them with this dirty tactic, they have the potential to spend. And since these sales-oriented games do not last long because of their poor quality, you can already tell that they are built for short-term.

    If you learned sales, there are only 3 ways to increase your revenue: to increase your customer base, to increase the frequency of transaction, or to increase your pricethat's it! The way they make as much money from these games is #2: increase the frequency of transaction from whales so they end up spending more in total per period than from an honest business model, and they are not willing to take the risks associated with the other strategies.

    What you have here is a completely sales-oriented game and to say that it will succeed here in the West is a joke! It's been over 10 years that they have been doing this, and if it should work again, it tells me what kind of mentality the common consumers have.

    I'm just gonna mention these facts, and as the Moderator already stated, I am forbidden from insulting anyoneI will respect such rules and whatever kind of cult you have here. I'm not gonna say anything further. Maybe I was toxic, yes, but that all stems from my disappointment of the genre for over 10 years. If you would ask for my opinion, I would rather be toxic than say nothing to this sales-oriented marketing that the genre adopted as the new standard for over a decade already.
     
    Last edited: Jul 4, 2019
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  13. Rainwolf

    Rainwolf Ascendant

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    You are right dude, that's why I'm here hahaha.
     
  14. Ali_Dire

    Ali_Dire Ascendant

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    man you got the wrong idea about my prefrences , i told you i only mainly play csgo cause i cant tolerate how unbalanced the other FPS' are , i cant handle even rainbow, it gives me cancer.
    and i left BDO after 19hours and never touched it again.
    i would love this game to be competetive and balanced with a cash shop with minimum effect on the gameplay. i dont play a game to spend (waste, right ? unless im having like super super fun or getting something out of it , it will be wasting not spending) time. its competition that i like (pvp/pve) in a balanced environment.
    we all are sometimes man.
    cheers.
     
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  15. Eternal

    Eternal Ascendant

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    You as well. Cheers! :)

    I'M SORRY THAT THIS IS LONG, BUT IT TAKES THIS MUCH DETAILS TO CONVEY MY MESSAGE.

    I am not asking them for Traditional MMO system, I know that MMORPGs have evolved over time and I also welcome new changes. I want the genre to evolve into something better, not remain the same over time. However what I cannot stomach the most regarding these changes is meaningless gameplay. The structure of the game is doing repetitive routines everyday for vertical progression on this extremely limited game with no challenging contents, no social aspects, no depth, no freedom—basically nothing meaningful. Another thing I would like to add is the Combat—it's Rhythmic. The Skills have such a long Cooldown that the game forces you into Rotation and Stance Dancing—this is not a good Combat System! Without having to elaborate more to make my comment short, it's basically these 2 things that kill this game and why Modern MMORPGs are a failure.

    All I stated above are regarding game-design, how about the Monetization? If you read my previous comment before this one, Free to Play is a way for them to increase frequency of transaction because players have the ability to spend as much as they want via Cash Shop, thus it provides them a larger source of revenue than any other model. From the sales perspective, if they don't take advantage of this financially, there is no point of this model. Over the years, yes, business model have became worse to the point that it affects gameplay. Trust me man, Free to Play with only Cosmetic Cash Shop and an optional Premium does not work from a sales perspective because people do not buy Cosmetics regularly and only dedicated players pay for Premium. I play Eve Online and I won't deny that it is a Pay to Progress game as you can buy PLEX that can be traded for ISKs and Skill Point Injectors (basically it's Pay to Win). The difference between CCP and other companies is they reinvest that money on the quality and contents of their game that suit it's unique playerbase, thus we get satisfaction even if it's Pay to Win and I don't regret having played Eve. There is a difference between being milked on a game that has no principle and no longevity and receive no satisfaction, and being milked on a game that has specific principle that certain audience prefer while the company uses that money to further develop their game.
     
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  16. löngun illi

    löngun illi Ascendant

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    Hello all!

    I think it's important to understand that free to play MMORPGs fund themselves by selling in-game content, a well-known fact. systems like this allow for players who can't afford a monthly subscription to still have access to the game. As long as the services that players can pay for don't give an advantage at the end of game content and as long as in-game prices are reasonable then really, there is no issue here.

    If a player who pays real money for in-game content and a player who pays no money at all can reach the end and be evenly matched as far as abilities and equipment are concerned that its almost unfair to someone who pays wouldn't you say? sure the person who pays real money gets done faster but if the end result is equal then one could argue that the money was wasted. Just food for thought before we all go on this pay to win is a robery argument.

    What do you all think of this opinion? hope you are all having a great day!
     
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2019
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  17. Eternal

    Eternal Ascendant

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    I explained to you the sales behind this business model and you still do not understand: 5 people paying $20 a month is $100 a month meaning if the size of that customer base or price of the sub do not change, their revenue stays the same, whereas if you make the game "free", you will have a larger potential customers of let's say 15 people that have the ability to spend unlimitedly in the cash shop—a variable source of revenue. Which is the more lucrative business model? Learn the sales behind this before you defend this model!

    If things are even in the end no matter the effort, no matter how much you spend in the cash shop, nobody will invest the time nor money in the conveniences in the game. A system that promotes equality and not equity is not rewarding and competitive—why put the effort if over time, things will even out for everybody? You know, I think first before I do things, and I will never invest (time nor money) in a game that is structured partially. Let's say that there are 5 people working on a project with 20% stake each because of equality system, why would I put more than 20% the effort to complete the project without receiving a larger stake? A game where everybody is equal in the end is not a game as there is nothing to determine the result nor have anything to contend for. Your proposal of equality doesn't work—it doesn't even work in the real world!
     
  18. löngun illi

    löngun illi Ascendant

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    Hello Eternal,

    First thanks for taking the time to respond to me!

    First, I think I should clarify that I'm not arguing about whether or not a specific business model is more or less lucrative. What I was saying is that the current cash shop is set to support not only a benefit to the company but also the player base that cant, or doesn't want to pay real money for the game. KR JUN took the time to write his opinion on the cash shop as well as some other points that I think is worth the read when it comes to the specific function of the in-game cash shop. That link is here

    https://forum.airthegame.com/index.php?threads/sea-obt-feedback-review.12532/

    For the second point, I was pointing out that if the end state of the game results in both a person that paid for in-game content and a player that paid nothing to achieve the same end state then the game is not P2W or pay to win but more P4C or pay for convenience. Seeing as nothing has been seen that directly supports paid in-game content that provides a clear and irrefutable advantage at the end game then the game is not inherently P2W.

    I hope I was able to clarify my point.

    Have a nice day :D
     
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