Pay To Win.... Like Black Desert Online... and Even WORSE

Discussion in 'Gameplay Discussions' started by kent jason basalan, Apr 21, 2019.

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  1. Selfdie

    Selfdie Ascendant

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    when you're that clueless lmfao
     
  2. Shion

    Shion Ascendant

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  3. Honeymind

    Honeymind Ascendant

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    Rant time!

    Is p2w gonna be the issue? Probably! Perhaps! But I cordially disagree.

    Let me share a thought of mine, if you care:

    Do you really despise p2w business model that much? Taken! Can't say I don't!
    But then, why don't we - and any other complying player - go, make our "Non-P2W-Guild-Thingies" and claim one of the game's upcoming servers as "our" own?
    Then build up a forum, website and FB page! Yay!
    You know, roleplayers try that all the time; maybe we'll be lucky enough to find this thing working.

    Then: complaining about problems might be useful, when done correctly. Though I personally think suggesting solutions it's favorably top notch, but meh - who knows? So, yes, we should point out our worries - as many of us already have done - but maybe it would fit better finding cunning ways to manage those pending troubles instead, no?

    I offer you an example: roleplaying is not a thing in many players' minds - heck it's even distrusted, discouraged, sometimes - but, hey! Roleplayers managed to survive throught cooperation - sometimes *wink wink* - the power of friendship, fairy dust and so long and so forth (ง ͠° ͟ل͜ ͡°)ง

    Id est: since p2w might become be a problem we, as concerned users, could always cooperate and build a strong in-game community, without placing stigmas upon the product per se. Stigmas spoil things, in my slippers-ish opinion. Which means also, please, stop blaming devs for making mistakes: just keep in mind that we, as consumers, share a part with those as well. Stigmas spoil things I said!

    And, after all, we should remember that at the end of the day they're just a bunch of people working their lives out - as we are.

    Then again, I'm just a pair of fluffy slippers - what should I know about that stuff?

    Lights out ~
     
  4. Eternal

    Eternal Ascendant

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    @Honeymind And let me share my own rants as well:

    Pay to Win is an issue affecting gameplay. If it's not equitable, then it's a broken gameplay system! A "game" according to it's standard definition of the term — whether it's PVE or PVP — is a competitive system with rules and deciding factors. To say that Pay to Win is an acceptable factor in a gameplay system means real-life money 'should be' a deciding factor in the competitive system. Do you know how stupid does that sound? MMORPGs are virtual! — shouldn't the system be entirely virtually influenced as well? Involve real-life money into this gameplay system and this is no longer a virtual game but a game for funelling effort and real-life money into the system! It's a game of throwing your money to this greedy company!

    If you don't care about the gameplay system and you are here to Roleplay, then you don't care about the "game" — you care about the Social Platform and Social Simulation instead! Most of us are not here to Roleplay, we are here for the "game"!

    Yes, we are non-financial Stakeholders to these companies — after all, we have a demand for a quality product and service.
    What do you think? That I didn't advocate supporting them?
    Honestly, there are so many problems that Customers should be digging their heels in until they realized there is a problem and they go ahead and fix it! If people keep supporting them, then these companies will continue with the same practices! If you do love this genre, then you must realize that we need to stigmatize practices and products that are not acceptable!
    Remember that our Stake here is a quality product and service! If we Customers are not gonna get those results, then we are financially supporting them for no reason! ("supporting a cause" means you are expecting a result!)
    As Stakeholders, we have been taken advantage of our generosity long enough for more than a decade! It's about time that we stand up for ourselves!

    And you should remember as well that in order to make money (which means making Sales), you have to create Value for the Market. This is not about the Employees but about the ROI! It's the demand on the Market for their product and service that they deliver to the Market that determines their Sales (Revenue). If your Marketing Team have no concept of "Market Segmentation" and only knows Mass Marketing, if your Marketing Team don't know how to establish a Product Mix to suit different Consumer Needs to capture a Diverse Market, If your Marketing Team are Sales-oriented and have no Product Orientation, if your Marketing Team don't know how to manage Customer Relationship, then these should only warrant their performance! The Employees are only Financial Stakeholders in the company, the Shareholders however are responsible for the performance! Why? Because it's their Equity and Portfolio, the? If they are bad Investors, then they should pay their price! Why should the Market support companies that have no intention of understanding and meeting Customer Needs which is essential for closing Sales? Just because they create jobs doesn't mean that they are entitled to our support when they are terrible at doing business!

    You know nothing, because your arguments and points do not make any sense, especially coming from a Customer's point of view! Everything that you stated are influenced by your own feelings — you can't see the big picture because you know so little!
     
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2019
  5. chevell

    chevell Ascendant

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    I don't know how many will read this but, just add for players to direclty buy the cash points from other players.

    In order for them to sell that forward to get in-game currency, it will require for them to spend $$, and it just makes everything blend. Free players can grind it out.
     
  6. Honeymind

    Honeymind Ascendant

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    @Eternal - ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

    Like I said: slipperssssssss...
     
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  7. mikroman

    mikroman Ascendant

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    BDO built to the bones of preorder users. It was "lie2win" in publisher side. KakaoMeme used this dirty trick but this is only 1time success. If they will use same strategy in NA/EU AIR will fail. No point to join in to the 1325th trash p2w system. Demands in East and in West (NA, EU) is different. And western market changed in the last years. "F2P" is not real advantage in MMO market anymore. Many MMO players have work and money and many of them (us) want TO PLAY THE GAME and not pay to be better than less rich players. I don't need f2p and other lies. I have money but I will not invest it to liar/p2w games. We have many p2w games now. What is the point to join in the next similar clone p2w system???
     
    Last edited: May 8, 2019
  8. Eternal

    Eternal Ascendant

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    The problem with the Casuals is they have a different way of thinking when it comes to spending money. They prefer to spend money on experiences rather than access to the activity. The first thing that comes to their mind when it comes to spending on an MMO is "am I getting my money's worth?". They rationalize by saying something like, "I paid $30 to Buy to Play Bless and I played it for 1000 hours and so I got my money's worth". That is a stupid way of thinking! You are wasting your money, time, and effort! An MMORPG is a "persistent" genre, and this is why we chose to play this genre in the first place — because the persistence is what we seek! If you want to get involved in MMORPGs, you think about the long-term activity rather than short-term experience! You are not paying for experience, you are paying for access! How stupid can you possibly be to measure Value based on Time Spent Playing / Cost? This is how they think of Subscriptions! Unable to maximize their experience because they are Casuals, they will question the Value of the Cost, when in the first place, it's not about the f***ing experience! It's about access to a quality game that is persistent! Instead, they should be questioning the Longevity of the game and the Value of the Cost through the right basis which is Quality of Gameplay / Cost. By spending $30 on Bless and it turned out to be a garbage MMO, you spent $30 and invested your time and effort on a short-term activity (by quitting, you terminated the persistence of your involvement). What are we looking for? Isn't it a persistent game?

    If the masses are this retarded and ignorant, Free to Play with no Box-Price and Free to Play with Box-Price (what people call "Buy to Play") are always gonna be the preferred Business Models. Let them fund this sh*t, because I'm no longer gonna fund a game that is tailor-made for them, only for me who actually spend — and people alike — to keep it alive by spending ridiculous amounts! Mandatory Subscription-based is cheaper to the people who actually spend! The reason the Casuals do not question the Free to Play Model is they don't spend or they don't spend much! The reason they don't question the Gameplay is they have less to no dedication to playing an MMO!
     
    Last edited: May 9, 2019
  9. Kailis

    Kailis Ascendant

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    Not everyone plays the way you do, and thete is nothing wrong with it. No need to insult, nor say they are ignorant.

    They just want to experience (yes, experience) the same game in a different way than yours. You and I may order the same meal, maybe you enjoy it but I hate it. AND IT’S FINE. Because no one is in the right to say how something should be enjoyed.

    So please stop it bein - trying to, actually - superior than the rest. There are enough trolls out there, we don’t need a troll whose posts are endless and end up being the same.

    You have already stated many times you have no faith in this game, and how you would not pay for it (not fund, it’s two very different terms) the way it is right now.

    Now I ask you: why are you even here if you already know the game doesn’t suit you? You should (not must, see the difference?) think about it twice and either drop your attitude, or just move on and wait for an other game.

    Oh, btw. We are NOT seeing and playing our version, so don’t freak out about cash shop and P2W and so on until it does indeed happen to us.

    Life is hard enough by itself, and this is just a game after all...
     
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  10. hurfmurf

    hurfmurf Ascendant

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    Something funny from Discord chat - "Cash shop or else!":

    [​IMG]
     
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  11. Gilgamesh

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    As long as its not P2W heavy i'm okay with it. I played enough P2W games to know that as long as the convenience items aren't extremely OP, its usually fine. It all depends on the execution. I've seen games where cash shop was so OP that people were running around with fully upgraded/enhanced/gem-ed on day 1.

    But what do I know? I'm just a casual player *shrugs*

    edit: just saw the current cash shop stuff
    • Inventory & Storage Expansion Slots
    • Cosmetic Vouchers & Character Expansion Voucher
    • Traveling NPC Storage & Megaphone
    • 30 & 90 Day 'Membership' (EXP +5%, Drop Rate +3%, Market Tax Fee -30%, Inventory +16 slots, Storage +14 slots, Home Teleport Cooldown -10minutes, Earth Aura +10%, Death Penalty -50%).
    • Home & Crafting station upgrade tickets (doesn't cost any in game gold)
    • Revive scroll & EXP Restoration (after death) scroll & Gear Repair Hammers
    • Pets & Pet vouchers (name change, skill reset, slot unlock)
    • Lifeskill Labor potions
    Honestly the only concerning item would be the labor potions. Hope they put a cap on how many players can drink a day. Membership doesn't look necessary but certainly can be convenient. Other things are just standard MMO stuff.
     
    Last edited: May 9, 2019
  12. mikroman

    mikroman Ascendant

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    This "p2w" in current state is copy&paste version of BDO cash shop. VP = "membership": same storage slots, same marketplace tax reduction... (+some elements of Bless Online shop)

    If "Normal" users can play the game without big issues storage/inventory slots are not a problem. XP buffs are not big things. But that "members win only marketplace" is pure p2w.
    I hope we will get better "Localization" in western market. Contents/elements of game are not bad. The game is good/acceptable... in theory. Breakpoints will be p2w/business model and long term contents. (Bless failed in crafting/gathering too. "life skiller" path was short and meaningless).
     
    Last edited: May 10, 2019
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  13. FliP

    FliP Ascendant

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    Storage and Inventory space is important in any game, but I would put it more towards convenience than a "unfair advantage".

    You won't be able to keep inventory of different types of items, but that is nothing you cannot work around. Use or sell what you don't need and only stock up on items that you need to keep for specific reasons.

    Therefore, it is convenient to have more storage slots, but you won't have any advantage of being able to keep more items of a different type.
     
  14. MrStealYoMMO

    MrStealYoMMO Ascendant

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    LOL thats how BDO started. Convenience stuff and then full on P2W ****.
    Kakao games loves to milk you off every cent you got. Hopefully thats not the case. However don't be too optimistic, certain things they promised during beta tests on bdo were never kept. And they release said items that they said "WILL NEVER" be on NA/EU.
    Thats how kakao game works, they say they won't implement things but as long as you gotta debit/credit card they will be eyeing you
     
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  15. FliP

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    Inventory Expansions were there from the beginning, just saying.

    If you're afraid of a game going P2W, because sooner or later it will, then you are better of leaving the MMORPG genre.
     
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  16. Sparki

    Sparki Ascendant

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    Why leave the MMORPG genre behind when you're afraid that P2W will be a game? Nobody wants P2W! Maybe those who wouldn't get along without it and have the money. What we need is a fair game! A game with enough content!
    A game that offers variety! A game that offers different ways to progress! And much more
     
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  17. Kjjing

    Kjjing Ascendant

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    "If you're afraid of a game going P2W, because sooner or later it will, then you are better of leaving the MMORPG genre."

    Les MMORPG qui fonctionnent le mieux à l'heure actuelle sont des jeux à abonnement ou B2P TESO, FFIV, WOW, GW2 . Alors pourquoi devrions nous abandonner le genre ?! Le jeu à abonnement n'est pas mort. J'aimerais qu'il soit B2P perso ou un système à la TESO avec un abonnement premium. je pense réellement que ce jeu à du potentiel, il est loin des bouses qu'on nous sert ces derniers temps. Il serait vraiment dommage qu'ils aillent dans la même direction que BDO.
    Je lui donnerai sa chance et je le testerai à sa sortie, mais si son modèle économique ou sa boutique reste ainsi je n'y jouerai probablement pas longtemps !
     
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  18. Shion

    Shion Ascendant

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    You might win the argument, but it won't change the reality.
    You can shout " Fair Play " all day long, and just like it didn't worked with BDO for 3 years, it won't work here.

    The Thai surprise release already showed that EU/NA is once again at the end of the line. You might have better results with communicating with Thai Dev/CM's if you want some changes.

    You would think after playing Black Desert for 3 years, people would learn about Kakao EU by now, and how they handle things.
     
  19. Shion

    Shion Ascendant

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    I agree, by now, most players realized P2W/P is the " Go to " Model for Korean MMO's.
     
  20. Arctix

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    I'll be honest. If during the launch, Bless Online's Cash Shop had a token for graphical optimization, I'd have paid for it and considered it acceptable p2w. #ForeHead

    Realistically, the p2w model is not out of the ordinary for that region. They don't consider it as negative as we typically do, which is why it's so frequent. In fact, I'd even argue it's more of a culture thing, because far too frequently do you see situations where if you work and can afford it, you should be allowed to benefit from it. I see it all the time on the promotional back end side of things from Eastern Developers, and even some companies out of the RU area. The polarizing effect here in NA/EU is also why such companies like EA are literally demonized for that. I mean look what happened when SquareEnix tried to pull that with the last Deus Ex with DLC. Most NA/EU folks frankly don't want Credit Card Warriors to effect the progression scope of MMOs.

    It's my hope that because of the MMO drought, as more and more Eastern developers bring games over to our neck of the woods, they understand the market that exists here and how different it is. It's not done intentionally, it's really out of pure ignorance.
     

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