Pay To Win.... Like Black Desert Online... and Even WORSE

Discussion in 'Gameplay Discussions' started by kent jason basalan, Apr 21, 2019.

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  1. Kjjing

    Kjjing Ascendant

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    Les items pour améliorer la réussite d'enchantement d’objet présent dans la boutique démontre bien leur intention. Nous voilà donc avec un cash shop à la BDO.
    C'est vraiment dommage...
     
  2. Laguna

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    It really bothers me to read all of this, most feedbacks coming from the SEA version are worrisome. This is just like another Black Desert Online and there little to no hope for a truely different business model when it will come to us, even if it could be different at launch it will irremediably end up the same as BDO so we kinda know what to expect and it's starting to be too obvious to be otherwise.

    Kakao Games lied to us more than once so I cannot really stay optimistic toward the future of this business model whether they're only informations coming from a SEA version or not; what's intrinsic cannot be changed that much anyways.

    I was one of the very few first active members of this forum and I just feel like I'm going to give up on this game : more precisely on the asian MMO market fully against my vision of what a good MMO should be. Investors/Developers/Publishers managed to be more aggressive on your wallets and they widely succeeded in that with BDO so it's probably why A:IR is following the same road for the sake of money but not for the sake of a great gaming experience. In fact there is a very good chance that their game is designed to restrain you resulting in some sort of frustration often leading the consumer to buy the solution in the Cash Shop because there will be a solution sold for any encountered frustration obviously.

    This mere design only shows how deeply corrupted the MMO industry is on this side of the world and the only ray of sunshine that remains to my eyes is on the west made by ourselves. Atleast we tend to respect ourselves more than Asia tends to.
     
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  3. Berinima

    Berinima Ascendant

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    Unfortunately, the problem lies more on the player side. I can't blame companies for utilizing such business models as long as they work. The bitter fact is that publishers and game studios don't exist to entertain us, they exist to make money. I have been part of several guilds during the last couple of years and pumping four to five digit amounts of money into cash shops hasn't been a rarity among the members. Funny enough, forums are always full of complaints about Pay 2 Win and what not, still there are more than enough people to whale the heck out of games like BDO. The only way to stop these business models to be viable is to stop spending any money.

    That being said, I still hope that Kakao surprises me and comes up with a fair cash shop for the western market this time. The game looks surprisingly good judging from the SEA streams I have watched.

    Cheers,
    Beri
     
  4. Eärwen

    Eärwen Ascendant

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    Nailed it
    https://giphy.com/gifs/iD2osyFl6KjK0https://giphy.com/gifs/iD2osyFl6KjK0
    Sadly, you're a minority that should not be, since rich and "whales" will entice the publishers and developers. It's changed since the beginning, it's more mmo, themepark and much less rpg, just pvp, you should get used to it... :/
     
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  5. Eärwen

    Eärwen Ascendant

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    you managed to explain some of my thoughts regarding this, this genre and these mmo(rpg)s from Asia and now copied in the rest. Good luck trying to explain this, people in discord channels widely support this, and they won't hesitate to insult you and mock (typical "don't like it don't buy it, sigh) to speak the truth.... in the end, the fault is most players', especially towards pvp and solo playing.
    I have a very strong feeling it's doomed....
     
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  6. Xenobius

    Xenobius Ascendant

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    It's simple, really - I'm much more inclined to pay a subscription or a similar modest amount for a monthly Premium Service with say, no-cost/low cost teleports/taxi travel, slightly boosted exp gain and other minor convenience stuff than spend a single cent (or even dedicate my time in the first place) towards a game with blatant rip-off cash shop and wallet fighters. Yes, the "grab some cash off the whales, then let the project die and move on to the next big thing" pattern works for publishers... Once or twice. But it's killing the genre in the long run.

    Currently, TH version of A:IR is selling pretty much EVERYTHING for cash. Housing extension tickets, inventory expansion (gone are the days when I was able to expand it by CRAFTING myself a better bag...), item over-enhancement failure protection, you name it. They're selling both convenience AND power. If EU has the same cash shop, this game will be just another stillborn that will re-release on Steam months later and sink into oblivion afterwards. Don't do this.
     
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  7. FliP

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    It is still a bit early to abandon the ship (A:IR pun intended) over a test version cash shop from a completely different region.

    Asians like their games P2W and won't play a game if it is not P2W enough, the complete opposite from the western market. There is no guarantee that the same cash shop, let alone the same items, durability system etc. will transition into the western release.

    I understand that we should blame ourselves for such business models. After all, if it doesn't work for them, they will change to something else.
    However, same as with political reforms, it is very hard to put together thousands and millions for a specific cause. In this case, it is enough for a handful of whales to refuse and make all efforts pointless.

    It should be the developers responsibility to build a fair game, as well as the publishers responsibility to maintain a fair game.

    I'm sure Bluehole and PlayPark are just testing the waters to see what goes and what doesn't and we will have our say as well during western alpha and closed beta tests.
    Let's wait and see what comes over to EU/NA and we can complain then. We surely won't influence the state of the TH version which is for a completely different market.
     
  8. Eärwen

    Eärwen Ascendant

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  9. Eärwen

    Eärwen Ascendant

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    welcome to the wildwest market.... community and game don't matter.
     
  10. xDrac

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    Where's the "Pay 2 Win" exactly?
    They've got to sell something in a Free-to-Play game, don't you think?
     
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  11. Gabsuviu

    Gabsuviu Ascendant

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    I do not like the shop, but I know why it exists, its a F2P game after all, we are all smart enough to understand a F2P that does not generate money will die fast, so such threads are pointless and really trolly, but since this exists I must say the repair kit and % chances to upgrade/echant stuff is A NONO for me in all mmorpg games.
     
  12. Sparki

    Sparki Ascendant

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    Pay to Win=
    You can buy items that affect the gameplay where normal players can't get at.

    So yes the Game is pay to progress / pay to win
     
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  13. Eternal

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    What about the Vitality Pots man? That is like the most Pay to Win Item here!

    It takes a while to recover Vitality in this game! It takes 7 minutes and 5 seconds to recover 5 Vitality (don't quote me on that, but I timed it on my game. It recovers 5 Vitality at a time). To gather something in the Open World, it takes 3 Vitality each. If you gather 5 times (which will take you 45 seconds to do!), that will be 15 Vitality! It will take you 21 minutes and 15 seconds to recover that, for an activity that took you only 45 seconds! It means you have to kill your time doing something else for 21 minutes and 15 seconds for just gathering 5 times.

    It only takes you 8 minutes or so to consume the entirety of your 160 Vitality if you aren't doing anything else but gathering. If you nick all that 160 Vitality by gathering 53 times without a recovery break, you need to wait 3 hours, 46 minutes, and 40 seconds doing something else to recover 160 Vitality back.

    To say that you don't need Vitality Pots means you can't do the simple math!
    • If you just wanna gather at small quantities (around 55 times in 4 hours), you don't need them -- you will simply find a diversion of your time on other in-game activities for the Vitality recovery. 96.59% of your time are spent on diversions for recovery break in 4 hours! Only 3.41% of your 4-hour time are spent gathering! This is what it looks like without using Pots!
    • If you wanna gather at larger quantities than that, you need them!
    • If you want to increase the yield of your gathering, which means lessen or eliminate the recovery break that you need to take, you need them!

    By paying for Vitality Pots, you can yield more on your gathering with less recovery break. More fraction of your time will be spent on gathering than diversion for recovery. That's what the Pots are for! -- to increase your yield! By using these Pots, you can spend more fraction of your time gathering!

    There are the "20 Vitality Recovery Potions" that have a 20 second Cooldown that are acquirable in the game from Daily Missions, Item Delivery, and Realm Reconstruction but they are not common to obtain. They can also be acquired from Residence Token Exchange for 3 Residence Tokens each and I don't recommend that you spend your Tokens on that as it's not worth it.

    Vitality are used for:
    1.) gathering resources and Seeds in the Open World
    2.) Cultivating the Seeds in your Production Facilities in your Estate

    There are 3 things that you obtain for gathering resources and Seeds (2 of which, you benefit from):
    Gathering Mastery for that Life Skill, Character Level EXP, and the resources and Seeds themselves.

    What do you do with Seeds? You Cultivate them in your Production Facilities in your Estate!

    There are 3 things that you obtain for Harvesting in your Estate (2 of which, you benefit from):
    Earth Essence, Character Level EXP, and the resources themselves.
    (Earth Essence are used for Upgrading your Estate and Production Facilities)

    What do you do with those resources? You use them to Craft!

    There are 3 things that you obtain for Crafting (2 of which, you benefit from):
    Crafting Mastery for that Crafting Workbench, very small Character Level EXP, and the Crafted Items themselves which are very useful.
    (You need to level up your Crafting Workbench in order to Upgrade that Workshop. By Upgrading that Workshop, you unlock more Recipes)

    There is a Collection Book in the game which gives Passive Effects (which require quantities of raw resources and Crafted Materials).
    There are limited Daily Quests in the game called "Item Delivery" which gives Residence Tokens (These Quests have supply delivery objectives which are Crafted Items).
    ---------------------------

    Vitality are used for 2 specific things, but because of the logistics, you will benefit from more than those activities. You cannot Craft in this game without resources! By spending your Vitality, you acquire resources needed to Craft. Ofcourse, by spending Vitality, you will also benefit from the Crafting and the rest of the logistics!

    Don't tell me that these aren't part of the Progression because they are!
     
    Last edited: Apr 30, 2019
  14. FliP

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    How much money do you make from each of those activities?
    You mentioned you can get Vitality Potions from quests, so people that choose to buy them make the decision to pay for something they can get for free.

    According to your numbers, it takes 3 Vitality and 9 seconds per gather. With full 160 Vitality, you can gather 53,33 times spending 480 seconds (8 minutes).

    How much Vitality do the Quest Potions restore? 60 or 100?
    60 Vitality Potions will grant you additional 3 minutes of gathering time, while the 100 Vitality Potion grants another 5 minutes.

    If Vitality Potions are a requirement in the cash shop to generate revenue, they should be limited to about 5 daily purchases per potion, which will grant the buyer an additional 15+25 minutes of gathering time just from the cash shop.

    How much progress can an individual make with additional 40 minutes of gathering time? You listed everything that Vitality does, but not how beneficial it actually is.


    *the above calculations are not taking into account vitality regeneration, just the effects from potions
     
  15. Eternal

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    20 Vitality. That's why they are called "20 Vitality Recovery Potion". This is the only acquirable Vitality Potion in the game.
    The Cash Shop sells "60 Vitality Recovery Potion" and "100 Vitality Recovery Potion".

    A Character recovers 5 Vitality every 7 minutes and 5 seconds (according to what I observed in the game. Don't quote me on that). A Character recovers 5 Vitality at a time. This is what it looks like without using Pots -- I'm just giving you the picture.

    This is not just about the Gold lol. Life Skills need leveling, the Estate and Production Facilities need Upgrading (including the Automaton and the Symbolic Base Production Facilities), the Workshops for Crafting need leveling and Upgrading, the Storage Workshop in your Estate needs Upgrading to expand it's Storage Slot, you need to work on your Collection Book, and the Crafted Items as well, are what you are working for!

    This game has a lot of Gold sink. Nearly all actions that you do in this game require Gold. It requires 2 things to Craft supposed that you already unlocked that Recipe: the resources needed and Gold. Think about it -- you are paying Gold to craft Crafted Items! This is more about the useful Crafted Items than the Gold! You don't wanna pay real-life money to repair Max Durability? That's fine! You can Craft the Metal Engineering Tools needed to repair. The Crafted Items are important! Just like Gold, they are also Assets! You don't know what "Stock" is and how important it is to work on expanding your Stocks? Go look at MMO Accounts people are selling online and see for yourself that they have pile of Stocks! It's one of the objectives that you work for aside from Min-maxing, status, relationship, and Gold! This is not Crafting for the sake of selling what you Crafted which is a narrow way of looking at Progression!
     
    Last edited: May 4, 2019
  16. crawlord

    crawlord Ascendant

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    Thanks op for the info.This will be an Ez pass from me . BDO taught me alot .
    P.A and my wallet are a no go zone . The whole pay to convinience is not p2w argment is null as well financed folks will always have an advantage that results in power creep . New players cannot compete in BDO... Not unless you no life + whale out at the cash shop to full pen + caphras ..
    My money and time is better spent elsewhere vs on online gambling casinos masquerading as games .
     
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  17. crawlord

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    point exact ... (claps furiously)
     
  18. crawlord

    crawlord Ascendant

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    maybe play it for free / 0 money if bored and see how gated it is then dump it like a Dumpster-fire when it turns out that the cash shop gates progress
     
  19. crawlord

    crawlord Ascendant

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    this is a flat out nope from me ..
     
  20. crawlord

    crawlord Ascendant

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    did that in bdo .. first is we will never sell XXX p2w elements then later pffft here whales ................
     

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