Pay To Win.... Like Black Desert Online... and Even WORSE

Discussion in 'Gameplay Discussions' started by kent jason basalan, Apr 21, 2019.

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  1. kent jason basalan

    kent jason basalan Ascendant

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    Hello Folks....
    so they already added the latest version of A:IR in the early beta testing.. and based on the livestream the Cash shop is already LIVE in the game "BUT" when they look upon the Cash Shop, they used the same Cash Shop system of Black Desert Online by only getting the pets in the Cash Shop which is crucial for the "LOOTING" system. and what's more they added more items which can literally advanced in topnotch those people who will buy their in-game currencies and for those items please watch the video since all the Pay-to-win items is too many to tell.
     
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  2. Vujkan

    Vujkan Ascendant

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    first its not p2win,second first need to wait eu/na version dont be idiot!!
     
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  3. Eternal

    Eternal Ascendant

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    You are the one who doesn't understand anything! Pay to Win by my definition and context includes Pay to Progress, Pay to Progress faster, and Pay to Convenience. In general, Pay to Win is anything that gives you an advantage over non-paying Players. If you can buy anything that affects gameplay through external means (it doesn't matter if it can be acquired in-game as well, whatever the difficulty of acquisition, or Convenience Items), that is a Pay to Win!

    Some of these Items in the Cash Shop can also be acquired in-game and some are Convenience, but that doesn't clear the game from Pay to Win! By your definition and perception of Pay to Win, Revelation Online is not a Pay to Win game to you because it's Pay to Progress faster and there is a direct Aurum : Gythril/Imperial Coins exchange.

    When you look at this game, it's very Pay to Win! (you can call it Pay to Progress faster and Pay to Convenience if that is how gullible you are!)
     
  4. Arika

    Arika Ascendant

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    Do not quarrel this is only Asian beta lmaoo :rolleyes:
    There will be no p2w for 2 months!! since you can't pay / not can use real money in the game pre-obt period xDDDD all bet player get for free loot cash currency : D
    but yes soon its p2w if started OBT.. vitality recovery potion .. similar archeage labor point recovery potion. : )
    but here you can build a estate as a free player, not as bad as Archeage ^^
     
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  5. Eternal

    Eternal Ascendant

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    The OP has a point! If not, his point is understated, and so, I am reinforcing it!
    Let's start with the Pets: there is only like 1 permanent Pet that is acquirable in the game, the "Gentleman Cat" (not the same ones in the Cash Shop, but it is a Pet nonetheless). You know how hard it is to acquire that? It is 850 Residence Tokens and you can only acquire 7 Tokens daily from "Item Delivery"! Tell me, are you stupid that you will work to acquire that Pet in-game that will take you 122 days supposed that you are capping on the "Item Delivery" Daily everyday when you can buy the ones in the Cash Shop ASAP and start leveling them as the Pets do give Passive Effects such as increase EXP earned, decrease Durability Reduction, increase Max Stamina, increase Gathering Mastery, additional Resource Recovery / sec, etc., that you can benefit from? When the OP talks about auto-Looting, that is an understatement! Pets can also have 4 Passive Effects each (unlocked by leveling them) and you can summon 3 Pets at a time.

    All Pets in this game can auto-Loot as long as they are summoned!
    "Pet ทีถูกเรียกออกมาจะเก็บไอเทมอัตโนมัติ"
    "Pet called out will automatically collect items."


    If you are not stupid, you will just buy atleast 3 Pets from the Cash Shop to level them all! Pets do receive EXPs and they can Level up. They have a Stamina System that decreases and you have to Feed them to increase the Stamina (Pet Foods are sold by Pet Merchant for Gold, Cooked from Workshop, etc.). You can summon a maximum of 3 Pets at a time. To Level up a Pet, you need to keep them up (when you summon a Pet and keep them up, they are gaining EXPs).

    There are so many things in the Cash Shop that gives you an advantage, Convenience included! (Pets are not the only thing!)
    What you are seeing in this video is not the complete Cash Shop! They will also sell other things like Premium Airpass which can greatly increase your Rewards from Missions!

    This is a Pay to Win Cash Shop and it makes the game pointless as paying can give you advantage!
     
    Last edited: May 2, 2019
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  6. Arika

    Arika Ascendant

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    are you arguing with yourself now?
    this is just a beta:) you can't use real money for 1 -2 months "pre obt period" ... this is not p2w in pre obt lol later will be p2w yeees .. but I don't care because I can play for freeeeeeee and wait eu release. Of course you are right in some things dear Eternal.. but dont forget its only beta.
     
    Last edited: Apr 22, 2019
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  7. Eternal

    Eternal Ascendant

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    You can do that for free! You can also pay for upgrades, pay for Premium Estate which has benefits, and there is an Item in the Cash Shop that gives you 100% Tax Break from the recurring Estate Tax! (it means you can avoid paying any Taxes and save Gold) Yes, you have to pay recurring Tax if you are to own an Estate in Harth! :)
     
    Last edited: Apr 23, 2019
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  8. Sparki

    Sparki Ascendant

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    What we want and I think I speak for almost everyone here is not P2W!
    We want a game that doesn't just think about money, but about your community.
    A shop is needed, a game has to finance itself, but please only with Premium and Skins for Mount/Pet/Housing and the like.
    Please no pay 2 progress or whatever...

    A:IR is the hope for an already destroyed mmorpg world.

    Give us a game everyone is waiting for!
    Don't make the same mistakes as almost all developers of the genre and only go to a small tribe of players.
    Let the mmorpg genre revive.

    On the A:IR being a success
    Greetings :D
     
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  9. kent jason basalan

    kent jason basalan Ascendant

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    Sorry if there's some mistake about the pet system that i previously believed can only be bought in the cash shop since BDO implements it that way and I can't understand thai. but what bothers me is the portion where you can buy "Enhancing items" for the player equipments and bought inventory packages. I think that it's a bad idea since a player will progress based on the equipment he/she will wear in the game. "The better the item the faster the player can climb" around the game system so if something like that "ITEM" persist in the Cash Shop then it's pure unfair then. That's the mistake of other MMORPG in the past where the critical game progressions can be bought in the Cash Shop. Most MMORPG players aren't kids anymore, there's a bit of needed intelligence to play this kind of genre so most of "US" had jobs already. and the conclusive advice is that "COSMETIC ITEMS" is the best doable item that you can give to the players in the Cash Shop without getting harassed by the dedicated gamers of this genre. you can give skin to every part of the game, you can sell another set of VFX for a particular class to give it a more menacing look? cutesy? bad-***? , sell skins for pets, sell diverse looks of the furnitures and parts of the houses. BUT PLEASE DON'T REPEAT THE ALWAYS REPEATING MISTAKE OF THE OTHER MMORPG FRANCHISE AND THAT'S TO SELL ITEMS THAT CAN BOOST A PLAYER TO THE TOP. why play in PVE then grind for 10 days and compete in PVP to test the waters? if other players will just buy such items to make the same effort in a cost of money. MMORPG for me is a game that focused in the progress..., to explore what the dungeon can give to gain some advantages to other players,to build a guild so that you can progress in the game with teammates. and you want that core concept to be bought by in-game items? then why make another game if you can just continue and make franchise of the MMORPG out there? since there's no difference if you will just take the path they take?
     
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  10. Eternal

    Eternal Ascendant

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    Suggestion to Kakao:

    This game can give us a single (and not a variety of) Monthly Premium where the dedicated Players will obviously pay monthly like in Runescape's Membership. I wouldn't look at it as Pay to Win, but as an optional Sub as it puts every Players who recurringly Sub in equal position. Dedicated Players will recurringly Sub as they are dedicated, and people who are non-dedicated may choose not to Sub and that is fine because they have no intention to compete. In a Subscription-based MMO, you Mandatorily Sub anyway! This is almost the same thing, you will just allow the non-dedicated people to play for free whenever they want to. If you are dedicated, you will Sub like it's a Mandatory thing even if it's optional (basically, dedicated Players can just treat it like a Sub-based MMO).

    I think this Business Model is better and it's fair! I can accept something like that, and I think that's something that will work! The game has to make Revenue one way or another to continue it's service.

    Now, when an MMO has only Premium and Vanity as a source of Revenue, you got to tweak your game-design to make the game worth Sub-ing for! A bad game-design is not a game that has long-term and no dedicated Player will invest in it! You can also make the game Buy to Play on top of these to make Capital to recover the Development Cost (I wouldn't mind so long as the game-design is good! If it's not, it will look like a Cash Grab like Bless). What is pissing me off more than the Cash Shop in Playpark is the current game-design of this game!
     
    Last edited: Apr 23, 2019
  11. Vujkan

    Vujkan Ascendant

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    yes Eternal you tell me i dont understand anything hahha,you just talk a lot
    and dont know anything about this game! First wait to eu/na client and maket system and then can talk about p2win,i think they not repeat again mistake from bdo and add p2win elements!!

    Premium is fine and its normal for any mmo.pets system like in bdo fine too,if you want to better pet (rng for enchant) buy it (pay 2 enjoy),extend storage,wardrobe,maybe xp boost thats fine too!
    Problem is only if they add something for gear and waepon(enchanting system) then will be a big problem!!
     
  12. Eternal

    Eternal Ascendant

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    @Vujkan We are talking about the Playpark A:IR here as all the source are from the Thai version. Also, there are already a lot of existing streamed videos of this game that can be analyzed. Perhaps you didn't do much of that, so let me explain to you what I have analyzed!

    Like I already said, this is not the complete Cash Shop.
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    The game also sells Premium Estate that is not only limited to 100% Tax Break benefit.

    Let me read to you the Estate Contract which states the benefits of Premium Estate:

    Contract
    ข้อมูลสิทธิประโยชน์
    Benefit information

    Production Facility
    1.) เพิ่มอัตราการเก็บเกี่ยวเมื่อพิซโตเต็มที่ ( Estateทั่วไป 100% -> Premium Estate สูงสุด 170% )
    1.) Increase the harvest rate when the pit is fully grown. (General Estate 100% -> Premium Estate up to 170% )

    2.) เพิ่มจํานวนการสามารถติดดั่ง Production Facility (Estateทั่วไป 6/7/8/9/10/11 -> Premium Estate 8/10/12/14/16/18)
    2.) Increase the number of can be installed as production facilities (General Estate 6/7/8/9/10/11 -> Premium Estate 8/10/12/14/16/18)

    จัดต่งสิ่งของ
    Organize items
    1.) เพิ่มจ่านวนครั้งในการจัดสงสิงของทีสามารถท่าเสร็จสิ้นใด้รายวัน
    (Estate ทั่วไป : ด้วน 1 ครั้ง / ทั่วไป 7 ครั้ง -> Premium Estate : ด่วน 2 ครั้ง / ทั่วไป 10 ครั้ง)
    1.) Increase the number of times that can be completed every day.
    (Estate General: Duan 1 time / general 7 times -> Premium Estate: 2 times / general 10 times)

    เคลื่อนย่าย
    Move
    1.) ลด cooldown ไป estate ของฉัน (Estate ทั่วไป 30 นาที -> Premium Estate 15 นาที)
    1.) Reduce the cooldown to my estate (General Estate 30 minutes -> Premium Estate 15 minutes)
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    The Vitality Recovery Pots in the Cash Shop like @Arika already mentioned is for the Estate as well, and for Life Skills!

    60 / 100 Vitality Recovery Potions
    พื้นฟุคด่าvitalityให้ด้วละคร 60 / 100 หนวย
    The base is full of vitality, with 60 / 100 plays.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    https://forum.airthegame.com/index.php?threads/enhancing-and-rng.12515/

    Metal Engineering Descriptions and Engineering Descriptions (10 + 1 Metal Engineering Descriptions)
    ใช้สําหรับแก้ไขดาความคงทนสูงสดของอุปกรณ์ให้เฟิมขึ้น หลังจากที่ท่าการอัพเกรดอุปกรณ์ .
    Used for fixing the high durability of the device to start up. After the device upgrade posture.

    Gear Repair Kits
    สามารถใช้ซอมแซมไอเทมสวมใสจากที่ไหนก็ได้
    - พื้นฟุดาความทนทานใด้30
    Repairs can be used for items worn anywhere.
    - Base durability 30

    These Items are used for Repairing Max Durability and Durability loss. Don't tell me that Max Durability don't play a role in Enhancing because they do! In order to Enhance, you need Enhancing Stones, you need Gold, and you also need to Repair as failure costs Max Durability and Durability loss!

    "To Enhance an Equipment in the game, it's Max Durability must be 50 or above. You cannot Enhance an Equipment that has below 50 Max Durability!"

    Also, Max Durability and Durability are prices that you pay for failing an Enhancement! The other 2 are Enhancement Stones and Gold consumed, and drop of Enhancement Level. These are the 3 prices that you pay!
    That is the purpose of a Failure-Preventer Material -- to protect an Equipment from Enhancement Level Drop on a +5 ~ +10! If money is not a problem to you, you don't need to protect your Equipment! You will just take the Damage from Advanced Enhancing and Whale to Repair it, which by the way is expensive! A Metal Engineering Tool/Description Repairs 1 Max Durability and 11 of them costs 28K Rubies -- that is the Price of repair for 1 Advanced Enhancing on a +5 ~ +10.

    If you can afford to Whale in this game, you don't need to worry about the Max Durability! The only thing you will worry about are Armor/Weapon Enhancement Stones and Gold to Enhance your Gears! Just Advanced Enhance it out all the way!
     
    Last edited: May 12, 2019
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  13. Eternal

    Eternal Ascendant

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    I can go on to more details but these are few just to give you an idea! I think this Cash Shop is very aggressive! Not only do we already have a 30 day Premium that covers an Account (the "Star Blessing Package"), we also have Premium Estate, a Premium Airpass, Realm Reconstruction Tickets, a Pay to Win Cash Shop, Vanity Cash Shop, and Account services (Character Slot Expansion, Inventory Slot Expansion, etc.), all at once!

    As for the Market System, we have a Trading Agency (an Auction House System).
     
    Last edited: Apr 23, 2019
  14. Kjjing

    Kjjing Ascendant

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    Merci pour les traductions Eternal. En effet le cash shop est est assez intrusif d’après ce que je lis. Sur un jeu ou il y a du pvp de tels avantages peuvent vite faire la différence...A surveiller donc. Espérons que notre version soit plus équitable.
     
  15. Vujkan

    Vujkan Ascendant

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    Eternal i think eu/na cash shop will be changed 100%,for now this is not big problem,but after 6-12 month this bastards can add to market p2win elements :(!!
     
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  16. hurfmurf

    hurfmurf Ascendant

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    Just an additional info found on the russian forums.

    [​IMG]
     
  17. Eternal

    Eternal Ascendant

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    There are 2 Durability Systems in the game. One is Max Durability and one is Durability.
    Metal Engineering Descriptions / Tools repair Max Durability.
    Gear Repair Kits repair Durability.

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: May 12, 2019
  18. Kailis

    Kailis Ascendant

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    I really don’t understand why this Eternal dude is still in the forums. Dude’s basically complaining about the game from the very start.

    @Eternal if you don’t like what you see, don’t play. Stop it with your “!” and your long posts already. You are not always right, get over with it and move on.

    Dunno if he’s a troll or a really angry dude with way too much free time. Whatever...

    Back to topic, I hope they will change the Cash Shop. I’d rather pay once and have a GW2 style cash shop than playing for free with too many interesting items behind a paywall.

    Lucky us this is not our beta. People should remembee this... And focus on gameplay and not on Cash Shop. That’s what a beta is all about afterall.
     
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  19. Vujkan

    Vujkan Ascendant

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    Dear @KakaoGames if you have the same Cash Shop market as Thailand,then dont realase this game on Western market,because no chance to survives 6 month in Western market,right now @Eternal what i see this is heavy P2win with this gear repair system this is bullshit!!
     
  20. Berinima

    Berinima Ascendant

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    A lot depends on whether or not you can acquire necessary items by in-game means, cash shop items can be sold on the marketplace or not and if so, how easy it is to acquire the necessary gold for the exchange… Many of the ideas here remind me of Black Desert though and that is not a good thing unfortunately.

    While the term Pay 2 Win is quite stupid in itself because nearly no item that has ever been sold in an MMO is a winning guarantee alone, Pay 4 Convenience or Faster Progression can be equally bad though. To illustrate this, let's come up with a hypothetical extreme example. Let's assume in a made up MMO money is everything because money equals power and the only valid way to acquire said money would be by grinding mobs and selling loot. Now, as a free player you would only have one inventory slot and any additional slot goes for 20 bucks on the cash shop. Also, one mob drops roughly one hundred items on the floor from which only one or two might be valuable. The only way to find out which however, is to pick up the loot, check the price in your inventory and delete useless crap. There would also be a pet in the cash shop that automatically picks up the best loot for you, which sells for 250 bucks. But hey, there is nothing wrong with this, because it's only Pay 4 Convenience, right? Another example, your XP gain in this totally made up game is 0.0001% per hour, however if you buy an XP boost which sells for 50 bucks you get 1% per hour instead. Nothing wrong with this, because it's only Pay 4 Faster Progression, right? Oh, did I mention that you can also buy boosts for your every gathering and crafting skill, twenty in total, 50 bucks each? Come on, this is totally fair and not Pay 2 Win at all, am I right?

    Sure, these examples are hypothetical and extreme and it definitely won't be this bad. Question is, how bad will it be? I get it, running servers and developing new content is an expensive effort. As a rule of thumb, I personally am perfectly willing to pay for a good MMO a nice box price, a decent amount for fluff and cosmetics and a monthly sum for convenience comparable to a subscription fee. But if the asked price is just more than that, I personally consider it not worth. But hey, what can possibly go wrong here, Kakao totally did not turn Black Desert into a whale-only game, right?

    Cheers,
    Beri
     
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